Sparring vs. Self Defense

drop bear

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I think I have the answer to part of the puzzle of how it works, but I don't have the grip strength nor the forearm conditioning to really test it and pull off, and that's just for one technique where I'm trying to get my hand into position to grab. Here's what I know from experience.
1. I know if I get it wrong my arm takes a beating
2. Because of weak hands if feels like my fingers nails are trying to grab and hold on vs my fingers locking the grip.
3. I only feel comfortable working on the outside, which means I have to stand a certain way in order to have an opportunity to grab the punching hand.
4. I feel as if I try to work the inside of the arm, that I'm going to get punched with the other hand. I have no Trust in the technique because I'm too scared to "man up" and get hit in the face if I get it wrong. Normally it's not a big deal but in this case, my head would be wide open.
5. I have a bad habit of "chasing hands" that I need to get rid of. This is where the person becomes so focused on trying to grab a hand or arm that they leave everything else open.

Learn to clinch. Because then the arm stops moving. It is almost always shoulder to wrist because the shoulder moves more slowly.
 

drop bear

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I saw it worked in a challenge fight with my own eyes. It's like you use your arms to set up a trap. Your leading arm at your opponent's elbow joint, and your back arm at your opponent's wrist joint. When your opponent punches at you, you lean your upper body back 30 - 45 degree. This will give you enough time and space to set up your trap.

It needs to be consistent and conservative. Otherwise we would all be doing flying arm bars,
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It needs to be consistent and conservative. Otherwise we would all be doing flying arm bars,
It's all about timing. You don't deal with the non-committed jab. You wait for the committed cross.

-Tap on the jab, tap on the jab,
- tap on the cross, catch the cross, lean your upper body back, spin your body, and "crack" that punching arm.

The reason that vertical fist was invented in CMA because people's arms had been cracked before.
 

pdg

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It's all about timing. You don't deal with the non-committed jab. You wait for the committed cross.

-Tap on the jab, tap on the jab,
- tap on the cross, catch the cross, lean your upper body back, spin your body, and "crack" that punching arm.

The reason that vertical fist was invented in CMA because people's arms had been cracked before.

If by "committed cross" you mean over extended with the body turned fully sideways, you'll be waiting forever against anyone I know ;)
 
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KPM

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This sounds like something you have been told and not actually able to do. I'm going to look up Maul Mornie's videos to see if there is one of him free sparring and doing this same thing. The Demo Invite of "Come up and try to hit me " is not the same as free sparring. People can do a lot of things in the context of a Demo that they can't do in free sparring.

I don't know who Maul Mornie is so I'm going to do some research on that first.

Now see....that attitude is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of this thread. This whole attitude that sparring is the litmus test of fighting ability. Why is that? Is that appropriate or accurate? Please refer to the OP. And don't bother searching for free sparring footage because you won't find it. His art is not a "sparring art", which was the whole point of my OP.
 
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KPM

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I just looked up Maul Mornie and he doesn't do any of the things that I said was really difficult to do such as catching a punch. .

And let me repeat what I said in my prior post......."So you defend a "gate" or "zone" rather than trying to "catch" an attack." In other words.....he is not trying to "catch a punch."
 
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KPM

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You can train to see and predict strikes coming at you.


You can train to set up an opponent and transition quickly to different responses that to outsiders will look "scripted" and impossible to pull off. But that is not necessarily true.

 

JowGaWolf

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It's not that difficult if you do it in 2 steps.
I'll believe the "It's not difficult" part when I see it. I yet to see anyone do this in a free sparring or competitive fight environment.
 

JowGaWolf

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And let me repeat what I said in my prior post......."So you defend a "gate" or "zone" rather than trying to "catch" an attack." In other words.....he is not trying to "catch a punch."
But I was referring to catching an attack. The literal grabbing of a punch either coming, extended, or returning to chamber.
 

JowGaWolf

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You can train to see and predict strikes coming at you.


You can train to set up an opponent and transition quickly to different responses that to outsiders will look "scripted" and impossible to pull off. But that is not necessarily true.

But this isn't the stuff that I'm saying is difficult to do. You and I are talking about 2 different things.
 
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Martial D

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I'll believe the "It's not difficult" part when I see it. I yet to see anyone do this in a free sparring or competitive fight environment.
Right? Whenever I hear 'X will work given y,z,and w, but there is no way to actually test it but watch these guys cooperating to make it work!', my eyes glaze over.
 

drop bear

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Now see....that attitude is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of this thread. This whole attitude that sparring is the litmus test of fighting ability. Why is that? Is that appropriate or accurate? Please refer to the OP. And don't bother searching for free sparring footage because you won't find it. His art is not a "sparring art", which was the whole point of my OP.

Except we can see the transition of sparring directly as it relates to real life.

I mean BJJ is a specific example and a kind of cool one because it is also a specific method.

We see footage of cops using methods of sparring to apply directly to police work. These methods don't even go out the window for streeter or even more applicable methods.

In other words cops who do BJJ do BJJ on the street when in theory they should at least be doing MMA.

We do not see these non sparring applications travel further than non.
 

drop bear

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What would be an industry trained wrist lock?



Buy the way. The straight arm bar takedown they are doing. Doesn't work like that. And at that angle. And it looked like the guy teaching was demonstrating it wrong.

So I assume everyone just gets the stop resisting knee massage.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Buy the way. The straight arm bar takedown they are doing. Doesn't work like that. And at that angle. And it looked like the guy teaching was demonstrating it wrong.

So I assume everyone just gets the stop resisting knee massage.
Woooooooow.. If that's industry standard then I'm glad I was unfamiliar with it. I cried when the Police in the 3rd video were grabbing the fingers instead of grabbing the wrist and no one corrected that.

Even if they wanted to be safe with the wrist locks, they would still need to grab the wrist so they can understand what part of the wrist they are actually targeting. Wow. that was just horrible. Something that could have easily been correct simply by reading a good Chin Na book that has details. The knees were brutal. Not the first thing I think of when trying to break structure lol.

This is how my mind works Knee to the thigh = degrade mobility, Knee to the ribs = break ribs. I used to always wonder about the arrests on T.V. when I see the police kneeing the suspect in the thigh. I just couldn't figure out the purpose of it beyond affecting mobility, and even then you have to get in a couple of shots before that occurs. It's not going to break their structure like what was said in that video. It's really clear when someone's structure is broken and 90% of the time it takes less force than kneeing someone in the thigh and expecting them to go down. Knees to the ribs is just going to make someone try to protect the ribs, it's not going to make someone relax and comply, then pray that they won't get kneed while in a relaxed state. Talk about the wrong technique for goal that they want to accomplish.
 

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I'm not sure it's as black and white as many make it. It's a complex topic. Doing forms only isn't going to help you much. You certainly need to test what you learn whether it be light sparring or any type of resistance. In good Krav, they have people hold pads up, put you in holds with resistance or suit up in an entire padded suit and you fight. Scenario based. It's how you perform under pressure is what Krav instills in you. A very instinctual aggressive manner. When I was at my MMA gym, my instructor was a big proponent of sparring. He felt it was very important, and it is to some degree.

I would conclude that MMA will always produce the best fighters. They train harder than anyone and are using the most effective martial arts that work in a combat sport environment. You learn how to fight by fighting.

I would put things like Krav and other SD systems as a second rate tier, but still good for handling most situations you're likely to encounter. Someone that stays in shape and practices Krav Maga/JKD etc. is going to still have more tools than they would have had they not trained in anything! Therefore it's still a positive.

When I was at the Moy Yat school, we sparred. However, .....let's just say the movements WC has were not condusive or ideal (for me) as I would nauturally would want to fight. That's where you get into style/system/movement differences. For example, a WC guy will have you stand or move in a certain way during a specific siutation compared to say boxing. So styles and systems do matter to me it's not just the training.

You're never going to do better than MMA in terms becoming a top level fighter. MMA will always produce the best fighters.

Israeli KM does a lot of this:



This is pressure testing.
 
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TMA17

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Rear naked choke escape. Nick was a bouncer and puts up some interesting clips on what works and what doesn't in the real world.


More than one way to skin a cat.



Krav instructor near me does it similar to both of these guys. Being a Judo guy he throws his leg out and behind him and tosses the guy.

Sorry I went a bit off topic here.
 
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Danny T

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This is pressure testing.
Hmm.
Not in my opinion. This is more of drilling under the pretense of pressure. It is a step toward pressure testing. There is no real attacking going on and no real pressure being applied. Not discounting it...it is a good stepping stone but isn't really pressure testing.
 

JowGaWolf

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Learn to clinch. Because then the arm stops moving. It is almost always shoulder to wrist because the shoulder moves more slowly.
Normally I would have just gone with this, but I really want to be able to learn how to use the techniques in my system because I think they are valid. I just suck at doing that particular technique so I gotta step up the effort and train my hands as if I really want to learn how to apply these techniques.

Your statement shoulder to wrist is actually how I tray to grab punches now. I do what I refer to as "Shaving a punch" The entry of the punch allows me set up hand placement around the upper forearm near the shoulder. Then I try to grab and lock the wrist when my opponent is trying to chamber that punch. This way I can start form a large grip and make it smaller as the forearm becomes narrow as my opponent pulls his arm back. The goal is to not allow my opponent's fist to slip through my grip. I think of the fist like a big knot on the end of the string, that can't pass through a tube. From here I can better find the joint of the wrist where I need to separate the bone of the wrist from the bone of the forearm.

It'll just take some time probably a year or more of serious training practice to get to that point where that will work.
 

JowGaWolf

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You don't deal with the non-committed jab. You wait for the committed cross.
This is why I like brawlers. All of their punches are fully committed and over committed.

Ironically things get easier once a person's fully committed to a punch or kick.
 
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