What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Juany118]

VT doesn't use a lead-rear leg stance at long-range. It keeps the leg out of the danger zone, either outside of kicking range, or inside of it.

This can help in drawing and baiting tactics to get the opponent to overextend, which opens them up for counter-kicking or punching. It's deceptive in that you don't actually lose reach. Of course, there's a lot more to the strategy and long-range tactics to accomplish this.

Maybe the problem is other forms of WC/VT are A LOT lighter on kicking? One may look at the "full on" stance and assume it lacks range because the fist doesn't reach as far. Thing is you can kick. In kicking you also learn how to defend against kicks and the neutral stance, which can limit punching range, for practical purposes, is a product of this. Thing is I can see how people may erroneously assume it is a product of how one should attack and not the defense it is is actually born of.

 

[LFJ]

Which is whatever sytem that was. VT probably? suplimenting their concepts with a bunch of modern fighting concepts. Either gap filling or cross training. To make a better system.

What are you talking about?

In that post, I was only discussing one sparring bout in that video that contained nothing but VT.

The other clips in the video showed grappling, which is cross-training, not gap-filling for missing striking fundamentals.

 

[LFJ]

Maybe the problem is other forms of WC/VT are A LOT lighter on kicking? One may look at the "full on" stance and assume it lacks range because the fist doesn't reach as far. Thing is you can kick. In kicking you also learn how to defend against kicks and the neutral stance, which can limit punching range, for practical purposes, is a product of this. Thing is I can see how people may erroneously assume it is a product of how one should attack and not the defense it is is actually born of.

Punching range isn't really limited either. It's deceptive.

If you stand in a lead-rear leg stance and extend your arm fully to touch a target, then without removing your arm, adjust your stance back to have the feet side by side, you can still reach the target as before, but your legs will have come back by more than a foot.

Of course, though, the range at which this stance is generally used is not for punching. It's just outside even the boxer's longest punching range, with the legs also safely out of kicking range. More safely on the edge of the opponent's long-range, used to bait and draw overextension that can be capitalized on.

A whole essential strategy goes with it. It's not just a fighting stance. Things also change when at close range.

It's the exact opposite of boxing stances and footwork and long and close range.

 

[KPM]

Other clips in the video showing grappling are irrelevant.
To continue to focus on this to invalidate the relevant part is dishonest.

Not knowing VT or what it entails but presuming to know is not only dishonest, but also arrogant.


----To continue to repeatedly refer to an MMA training clip as "pure WSLVT" is dishonest. To show an MMA clip that clearly has elements added from grappling and clearly has elements that look like boxing, and then to say the grappling was an "add on" but the boxing element has been part of WSLVT all along....and expect everyone to just take your word for this.....despite the fact that you cannot provide any other WSLVT video showing this long range element....and claim this video as any kind of "proof" of what you are saying....is not only dishonest, but also arrogant and somewhat delusional.

 

[LFJ]

----To continue to repeatedly refer to an MMA training clip as "pure WSLVT" is dishonest.

I haven't.

I referred to a single sparring bout that happened to be in a compilation video that also shows grappling in unrelated clips.

You keep pointing to unrelated clips in the compilation to disqualify the sparring bout that shows a pure VT long-range game.

If you don't know what VT entails, you are not justified in saying what is or isn't VT.

 

[Juany118]

Punching range isn't really limited either. It's deceptive

True.

 

[KPM]

You keep pointing to unrelated clips in the compilation to disqualify the sparring bout that shows a pure VT long-range game.

And you think that short segment of a bout showed an actual "long range game"??? Not just a "long range strategy"??? Again, it is very clear that you don't understand the difference between the two. And again, you expect everyone to take your word for it...that motions that so strongly resemble western boxing are actually "pure WSLVT".....despite no other evidence to show that. And despite the fact that they are found in a clip where things from outside of WSLVT have clearly been added? And this is your "proof" of what you've been saying? Pretty pathetic!

 

[Juany118]

And you think that short segment of a bout showed an actual "long range game"??? Not just a "long range strategy"??? Again, it is very clear that you don't understand the difference between the two. And again, you expect everyone to take your word for it...that motions that so strongly resemble western boxing are actually "pure WSLVT".....despite no other evidence to show that. And despite the fact that they are found in a clip where things from outside of WSLVT have clearly been added? And this is your "proof" of what you've been saying? Pretty pathetic!

The thing is however, while you have shown that yes many WC people just try to get inside, you haven't really examined the whys of it which I think are two fold

1. The training issue I have noted more than once.
2. Strategy.

2. Is I think just as important. When I first started sparring against my brother in law I went to get in close not because I lacked a long game but because I know how he trained TKD and I knew he would be weak if I got in that close. In short my opponent shows me how to beat him and in those early days getting in close was the way. It had nothing to do with a lack of a long game on my part and everything to do with the fact that many striking arts are simply more vulnerable to a close game.

 

[LFJ]

And you think that short segment of a bout showed an actual "long range game"??? Not just a "long range strategy"???

It meets your arbitrary requirements, unless you are requiring overextended punching and spinning kicks.

And despite the fact that they are found in a clip where things from outside of WSLVT have clearly been added?

It's not. That video is a compilation of unrelated clips.

Your tactic of using one clip to disqualify another is very dishonest.

 

[LFJ]

WSL wasn't the only teacher so you probably mean your VT.

YMVT. He doesn't know YMVT in any branch.

He's only attended a few private lessons with a handful of teachers.

 

[Nobody Important]

Why don't y'all take a break. Have some BBQ, spend some time with your loved ones and pick this ridiculous conversation up later. Happy 4th everyone!

 

[LFJ]

Are you teaching this to students or learning this? Because I think this is the biggest laugh I have ever had.

I know I learned this at some point, it's just way to long ago that I needed this video to remind me. WSL VT for you guys

Chiu-ying is obviously a fundamental concept of VT, but I don't pay much attention to DP.
He also a fragmented understanding of VT. Everything is application-based for him, too.

Not WSLVT.

 

[KPM]

It's not. That video is a compilation of unrelated clips.

Your tactic of using one clip to disqualify another is very dishonest.

What??? That entire video clip was of Sean's guys training for MMA. So you are sounding even more and more pathetic in your attempts to defend your dogmatic beliefs. Better you stop now!

 

[KPM]

YMVT. He doesn't know YMVT in any branch.

He's only attended a few private lessons with a handful of teachers.

You're talking about me? You know nothing about me! And this coming from a guy that won't give his real name and would NEVER post a video of himself!!! Like I said....when you can't disprove the message, attack the messenger! Typical pathetic attempt to deflect valid points.

 

[LFJ]

That entire video clip was of Sean's guys training for MMA.

And why the heck do you keep looking at the entire video, when I was only talking about a single sparring bout, if not in a dishonest attempt to disqualify the bit that demonstrates VT's long-range game?

You're talking about me? You know nothing about me!

You said it yourself, here:

"---I did Ip Man Wing Chun for many years. First directly from Joy [who says you have a fragmented understanding of WC], and then traveling back and forth to Tucson to work with Augustine Fong directly on multiple occasions. Then I did TWC, traveling to Baltimore to study with John Clayton in a series of private lessons. Did that for awhile, and then got into Pin Sun. I made several visits to Boston to study with Jim Roselando. Got away from it for awhile and did other things. More recently went back to Boston a few times to study with Marc Kenney under the direct supervision of Henry Mui. [So, you traveled for several visits here and there for private lessons] Looked into the CSL approach because they do talk about some of the same type of biomechanics as in Pin Sun. [By following an online program, not even in person with hands-on training] I've only recently returned to TWC, because I came to the conclusion that the footwork and angling was just much better for a sparring/fighting situation." [And at the end, you found most things had less functional footwork and angling for sparring and fighting.]

So, no full training at all. Of course you barely know anything about Wing Chun...

Now, with your fragmented understanding of Wing Chun, you're attempting to make something functional out of it on your own by adding Western Boxing without taking into consideration the protective ring rules that allow it to safely behave as it does... Meanwhile telling me what WSLVT does or does not entail, while having 0 knowledge or experience of it.

when you can't disprove the message, attack the messenger!

I have, but you can't talk much about Wing Chun with as little experience as you have.

 

[Nobody Important]

ap·pli·ca·tion
ˌapləˈkāSH(ə)n/

the action of putting something into operation.

1. "the application of general rules to particular cases"
   synonyms: implementation, use, exercise,employment, utilization, practice,applying, discharge, execution,prosecution, enactment;
   formalpraxis
   "the application of official rules"

Principles don't apply themselves, simply knowing a WC principle doesn't mean it will spontaneously manifest. The principle is of little use until it is applied to a technique that can exploit the principle. Correctness of the pairing is subjective, as relevance is based on the outcome.

 

[Knapf]

Er...guys, can I play the role of mediator? It seems like this is getting nowhere. Of course browsing through, there are some things I agree on more than another but I decided it would not help if I join in but aggravate things more.
So let's just move on. Never mind who backs out first,nobody is gonna say you lost or was proven wrong. I have learned that from the humble people here and it was a good lesson

 

[KPM]

And why the heck do you keep looking at the entire video, when I was only talking about a single sparring bout, if not in a dishonest attempt to disqualify the bit that demonstrates VT's long-range game?



You said it yourself, here:

"---I did Ip Man Wing Chun for many years. First directly from Joy [who says you have a fragmented understanding of WC], and then traveling back and forth to Tucson to work with Augustine Fong directly on multiple occasions. Then I did TWC, traveling to Baltimore to study with John Clayton in a series of private lessons. Did that for awhile, and then got into Pin Sun. I made several visits to Boston to study with Jim Roselando. Got away from it for awhile and did other things. More recently went back to Boston a few times to study with Marc Kenney under the direct supervision of Henry Mui. [So, you traveled for several visits here and there for private lessons] Looked into the CSL approach because they do talk about some of the same type of biomechanics as in Pin Sun. [By following an online program, not even in person with hands-on training] I've only recently returned to TWC, because I came to the conclusion that the footwork and angling was just much better for a sparring/fighting situation." [And at the end, you found most things had less functional footwork and angling for sparring and fighting.]

So, no full training at all. Of course you barely know anything about Wing Chun...

Now, with your fragmented understanding of Wing Chun, you're attempting to make something functional out of it on your own by adding Western Boxing without taking into consideration the protective ring rules that allow it to safely behave as it does... Meanwhile telling me what WSLVT does or does not entail, while having 0 knowledge or experience of it.



I have, but you can't talk much about Wing Chun with as little experience as you have.

Wow! You really are obsessed with me, aren't you! Pretty pathetic the lengths you will go to to defend your dogmatically held beliefs! If you can't negate the message, then attack the messenger!

Evidenced by the fact that you will put out effort to hunt down my bio, but you won't put out effort to describe how all those boxing-like things from Sean's clip are found in the WSLVT Biu Gee form. You've got nothing! Obviously!

 

[KPM]

Er...guys, can I play the role of mediator? It seems like this is getting nowhere. Of course browsing through, there are some things I agree on more than another but I decided it would not help if I join in but aggravate things more.
So let's just move on. Never mind who backs out first,nobody is gonna say you lost or was proven wrong. I have learned that from the humble people here and it was a good lesson

Agreed. I had already decided this was pretty pointless and have only come back to defend myself from personal attacks and when people have tried to say I wrote something or believe something that I don't.

 

[geezer]

Are you teaching this to students or learning this? Because I think this is the biggest laugh I have ever had ...WSL VT for you guys'

@Malos: That's David Peterson, a WSL-VT instructor demonstrating two basic concepts, 1. fighting with the body square to your opponent's center and not "bladed" at an angle, and 2.he shows how he gets and angle on his opponent so that his opponent is not facing his center. Which one, or both do you find laughable?

...Also, Peterson is one WSL-VT instructor that LFJ has expressed disagreements with in the past, so he may not find this basic demo representative of his VT.


@ LFJ: Regarding my last comment above, I know that in the past you have distanced the conceptual WSL-VT you train from the more "application-based" teaching method of David Peterson.

Apart from that, would you more or less agree with the very basic points Peterson touches on in this beginner demo? Simple stuff like facing your opponent squarely, chasing center while forcing your opponent off-center?