What school?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You hear stories like this Way too often. I don't get it at all. It is not like any school is running out of physical room and a warm body is usually a good presence every way imaginable. It takes a really big pair to try and pull crap like that.

I think it's a couple of things. The most selfish is that if they're not actively profiting off you, they feel resentment just for you being there. Outside of that, it's taking time away from other students you could be teaching (although in reality having more advanced students should only make teaching easier, but I guess that depends on teaching style), and depending on how crowded the class is, they may be running out of actual room. I've seen classes with 30+ people in there, and each person takes away space and makes the room that much hotter.

 

[JR 137]

Did he learn anything?

Learn anything, yes. But not to any decent standard beyond being able to physically remembering the steps if he didn’t hold himself back. He wasn’t there for belts; he was there to train and develop skill beyond the superficial memorization of walking through something.

A member here had a child at the same chain for a short period. His experience with the place wasn’t very good either. They’re far more interested in keeping people happy with belts and titles, and collecting tuition than they are interested in teaching and developing solid functional skills.

 

[Steve]

Learn anything, yes. But not to any decent standard beyond being able to physically remembering the steps if he didn’t hold himself back. He wasn’t there for belts; he was there to train and develop skill beyond the superficial memorization of walking through something.

A member here had a child at the same chain for a short period. His experience with the place wasn’t very good either. They’re far more interested in keeping people happy with belts and titles, and collecting tuition than they are interested in teaching and developing solid functional skills.

Got it. So subpar training and also shady business practices.

 

[lenatoi]

I have to agree with most here. Go preview all that you can. Watch many instructors. Compare the way a blue belt moves to a black belt, and decide if you like the progression.

 

[WhiteBeltNoStripe]

Well, I visited the ATA and Villari schools. Each (adult) class I watched only had four students.

ATA - (2) 11-12 year old girls. (1) red belt woman. (1) blue belt man. I was informed their adult class has withered away, possibly due to covid.
Quick warm-up, all girls practiced weapons (I guess this is a requirement in ATA-Songahm) and man light sparring, followed by forms by all and a cool down. All in a 30-minute class. Apparently, they have shortened class times, also due to covid. They did have four instructors on the floor, which I thought was cool as all students got as much attention as they desired and/or needed. Three available classes a week for my level. Six month commitment contract, which I hate contracts.

Villari's - (2) green belt men. (1) blue belt man. (1) yellow belt girl. I was informed Wednesday night was typically a slow night and other classes usually have more attending. Quick warm-up, then group combination recall by numbers (Villari's uses numbers as opposed to names), followed by forms practice. 1-hour class. A visiting high ranking instructor was actually visiting the school that night, which was cool. I was told he visits often and is usually at every testing, which I was told ensures good teaching from main instructor and to make sure students advancing are indeed ready to be promoted, which I thought was cool. Four available classes a week for my level. No contract, month to month payment.

Both schools had things I liked, but not really sold on either. I plan on attending the Saturday morning class at Villari's and next Tuesday another ATA class and hopefully be able to make a selection. I appreciate all the thoughts and wisdom from you all and will keep you all updated on what I decide for those interested. Thanks again!

 

[dvcochran]

Refresh my memory, will you be starting at white belt with no prior experience? It is good that you have a general idea of what you are looking for but I still do not think you get a really good feeling for a program by watching a couple of classes. Trial programs are very common these days. I would suggest taking as long a trial (no money/no commitment) as they allow before making a decision.
In terms of what you saw (the material) at each school which one closest fits your mental picture of the ideal program?

 

[WhiteBeltNoStripe]

I will be starting as a white belt, with previous experience, years ago. The ATA school offers a three week trial with uniform, for a low cost. The Villari school offers a free one on one intro class and one free group class, then you must join.

As far as what I saw, compared to what I’m looking for, it’s hard to say. As you mentioned, it’s hard to gauge from sitting in and watching a few classes. It would be best to go to as many trial classes as possible to hopefully make the right decision.

As mentioned, I prefer a school with structure and a defined program. It appears these days most schools operate progression based on number of classes attended = automatic testing for next belt. Having issue with this also goes against my statement of a school having a defined program, lol. I suppose I may be too critical, but I genuinely hope to find a school where I feel I’m learning quality. I dunno.


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[dvcochran]

I will be starting as a white belt, with previous experience, years ago. The ATA school offers a three week trial with uniform, for a low cost. The Villari school offers a free one on one intro class and one free group class, then you must join.

As far as what I saw, compared to what I’m looking for, it’s hard to say. As you mentioned, it’s hard to gauge from sitting in and watching a few classes. It would be best to go to as many trial classes as possible to hopefully make the right decision.

As mentioned, I prefer a school with structure and a defined program. It appears these days most schools operate progression based on number of classes attended = automatic testing for next belt. Having issue with this also goes against my statement of a school having a defined program, lol. I suppose I may be too critical, but I genuinely hope to find a school where I feel I’m learning quality. I dunno.


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@JR 137 made a very good post about this. Even if you are working out on contractual basis there is nothing wrong with going at your own pace and skipping scheduled testing's if you feel you are not ready. I would suggest talking about this before signing up anywhere. Most people come in wanting to promote as fast as possible. Someone coming with your mindset may be refreshing to the instructor.
At some point you may need a push from the instructor for your own benefit but they should never shove every testing down your throat.

 

[JR 137]

I will be starting as a white belt, with previous experience, years ago. The ATA school offers a three week trial with uniform, for a low cost. The Villari school offers a free one on one intro class and one free group class, then you must join.

As far as what I saw, compared to what I’m looking for, it’s hard to say. As you mentioned, it’s hard to gauge from sitting in and watching a few classes. It would be best to go to as many trial classes as possible to hopefully make the right decision.

As mentioned, I prefer a school with structure and a defined program. It appears these days most schools operate progression based on number of classes attended = automatic testing for next belt. Having issue with this also goes against my statement of a school having a defined program, lol. I suppose I may be too critical, but I genuinely hope to find a school where I feel I’m learning quality. I dunno.


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Don’t confuse the minimum number of classes attended to be eligible to promote with a mandatory-ish promotion after that many classes.

My school has a minimum number. My teacher emphasizes that means the bare minimum; not the maximum or other magic number to promote even though the student isn’t ready.

 

[Buka]

My uncle signed up for the “black belt program” after a year or two at a TKD school. It covered tuition and testing fees up to and including black belt.

Once he signed up for it, he somehow kept getting pushed to promote faster. He held himself back a few times, then waited an extra year to test for black belt because the whole cash grab thing he saw it become sickened him. He passed his black belt test, then they tried to charge him $250 for the belt itself. Fine print: test was included, the physical belt and certificate weren’t. There was no outside organization like KKW for the school to pay, and the belt wasn’t anything special; a $50 embroidery included at best belt.

He told them to keep the belt and certificate. He was done with them before that point anyway.

Yeah, I've heard all the stories for many years. Never actually saw it, though.

I'd cut of my baby finger before I'd charge somebody for a black belt. To spend all those years going through the hell of training and then even charge them the ten bucks for a belt, never mind hundreds of dollars....wow.

Years ago I went to get a haircut. My hair guy got called away in an emergency and one of the gals who also worked there gave me the haircut. She knew I was in the Arts and she told me that her husband was getting brainwashed at his dojo, and had recently been bilked out out twenty five grand - and this is in nineteen nineties dollars - for an accelerated black belt course where they would film him and sent the tape away to the MASTER overseas. She wanted to know if there was any advice I could offer.....other than just shooting her husband.

I was a Fed back then, called in some favors and contacted some other Feds. They opened an investigation and one joined that dojo.

Long story short, after six months they shut the place down, a couple of them went to jail.
But the gal never got their twenty five grand back.

I despise con men in general. But con men in the Arts have a special dark place in my jaded heart.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yeah, I've heard all the stories for many years. Never actually saw it, though.

I'd cut of my baby finger before I'd charge somebody for a black belt. To spend all those years going through the hell of training and then even charge them the ten bucks for a belt, never mind hundreds of dollars....wow.

.

Program pricing is different for different reasons. For instance, I teach at a Park District and they keep a minimum of the monthly payments against a percentage. Advantage to students is low cost compared to retail / storefront. I'm also fortunate that I don't need to do it to make money. However, incidental cost like Belts and certifications are passed along. These are spelled out in the "Student Handbook" all students get on the first day.

 

[Flying Crane]

@Tait I’m gonna he the doomsayer here, but holy crap, are these places holding in-person classes in the middle of an out of control and expanding pandemic? Indoor classes? I highly recommend holding off until this pandemic is under control. This is just reckless.

 

[WhiteBeltNoStripe]

@Tait I’m gonna he the doomsayer here, but holy crap, are these places holding in-person classes in the middle of an out of control and expanding pandemic? Indoor classes? I highly recommend holding off until this pandemic is under control. This is just reckless.

Yes, both are. The ATA school has taped off 10x10 sections for each student, but I feel there is still close contact between student and instructors. The Villari school was business as usual.


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[WhiteBeltNoStripe]

@Tait I’m gonna he the doomsayer here, but holy crap, are these places holding in-person classes in the middle of an out of control and expanding pandemic? Indoor classes? I highly recommend holding off until this pandemic is under control. This is just reckless.

Oh, the ATA school also does the temperature check thing upon entering. They also have cut down each class time to disinfect the mats between classes.


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[Flying Crane]

Yes, both are. The ATA school has taped off 10x10 sections for each student, but I feel there is still close contact between student and instructors. The Villari school was business as usual.


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Wow. Yeah, you get people indoors breathing hard from exercise, it’s a bad scene. Seriously, it’s not worth taking the chance right now.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh, the ATA school also does the temperature check thing upon entering. They also have cut down each class time to disinfect the mats between classes.


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Temperature check is too little, too late. People are contagious long before showing symptoms like having a fever. Some people never show symptoms, but they are still contagious.

Temperature check makes people feel good about a bad situation. It does very little to make the situation better.