What is the Purpose of Chi Sau

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share your thoughts on what is the purpose of Chi Sau? please elaborate on how Chi Sau benefits a Wing Chun fighter?

For instance Sensitivity...Explain why you need sensitivity and how having more sensitivity is advangtage.

Also if anyone lineages deals with different uses of Ging or Geng please share your thoughts on how Chi Sau teaches how to use the Eight Gings?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If you want to know more about advantages to this I would suggest reading the Tai chi classics the treatise of Wong Chung Yua gives great advice and about listening,sticking, and them some.

 

[skinters]

to me this is the biggest misconception about chisao,that it teaches you sensitivity.we are already born with sensitive hands and if chisao teaches you anything its that contunious repetition works the muscle memory .at the end of the day chisao is nothing special,and the question might as well be asked whats the purpose of doing drills .

as for ging and geng you lost me there im afraid .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay are you familiar with the term Jing?


An now that you said please share the purpose of drills?

An thankyou for adding to my question by sharing repetitions?


What I should have said is what is the purpose of freestyle chi sau?

to me this is the biggest misconception about chisao,that it teaches you sensitivity.we are already born with sensitive hands and if chisao teaches you anything its that contunious repetition works the muscle memory .at the end of the day chisao is nothing special,and the question might as well be asked whats the purpose of doing drills .

as for ging and geng you lost me there im afraid .

 

[mook jong man]

You could probably write 15 pages on this topic and still not cover it all .
I think the main purpose is to train our arms to respond to an attack with out conscious thought and to more or less have mind of their own .

When we feel a certain type of pressure on our arms we react automatically with a trained response that puts the attacker in a bad position and us in a good position . Because in a real fight if you have to think about it , it is too late.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent answer mook jong man. I know we could write ten pages are more on this topic. But I am glad we can hash these things out. I love to hear the opinions of others. Yes. When you practice drills and chi sau its to make the body react instinctively. That is so true.

You could probably write 15 pages on this topic and still not cover it all .
I think the main purpose is to train our arms to respond to an attack with out conscious thought and to more or less have mind of their own .

When we feel a certain type of pressure on our arms we react automatically with a trained response that puts the attacker in a bad position and us in a good position . Because in a real fight if you have to think about it , it is too late.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

If you look at lok sau, you will see the arms in several possible configurations of inside-outside, over-under.

If you are going to be struck by a person that wants to rip your head off, and you get wind of it, you will instinctively raise your hands and arms to protect yourself...

and eventually end up in one of the configurations.

From there, the proprioceptice reference points and neurologically ingrained actions that have been programmed into the body by Chi Sao training (in its different levels, evolutions, intensities and Rules of Engagement) should automatically kick in and respond. (If trained right, of course.)

In sparring, you have a disengaged stage, which is not present in many self defense situations. This is where you size up your opponent and actually is more of a duel... a contest of dominance where both participants want to dominate.

Self defense and self preservation scenarios deal with you being a civilized person and another wanting to kill you or do great bodily harm. It is a felonious assault. It is not a fun match.

So Chi sao eliminates that "we're disengaged" stage and you go to the nitty gritty of being REALLY up close and personal with someone and training split second actions to prevent harm to you and, since it is the season for giving, give back... a LOT!

Chi sao is a safe way to spontaneously attack and defend; programming responses to increasing levels of aggression and intensity, so that from there, you can extrapolate to simulations and be quite ready.

Of course, on the higher levels, get your cage mask on and gloves and you can bang some... much fun! That way when going for multiple attacker scenarios and one gets close, you blow them up and get ready for the next one!

Again, much fun!

Much more of course, yet that is the basic idea of Chi sao as an educational tool for fighting.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Yoshiyahu]

The was very well spoken. Thank you for that. Very good post.

Greetings.



If you look at lok sau, you will see the arms in several possible configurations of inside-outside, over-under.

If you are going to be struck by a person that wants to rip your head off, and you get wind of it, you will instinctively raise your hands and arms to protect yourself...

and eventually end up in one of the configurations.

From there, the proprioceptice reference points and neurologically ingrained actions that have been programmed into the body by Chi Sao training (in its different levels, evolutions, intensities and Rules of Engagement) should automatically kick in and respond. (If trained right, of course.)

In sparring, you have a disengaged stage, which is not present in many self defense situations. This is where you size up your opponent and actually is more of a duel... a contest of dominance where both participants want to dominate.

Self defense and self preservation scenarios deal with you being a civilized person and another wanting to kill you or do great bodily harm. It is a felonious assault. It is not a fun match.

So Chi sao eliminates that "we're disengaged" stage and you go to the nitty gritty of being REALLY up close and personal with someone and training split second actions to prevent harm to you and, since it is the season for giving, give back... a LOT!

Chi sao is a safe way to spontaneously attack and defend; programming responses to increasing levels of aggression and intensity, so that from there, you can extrapolate to simulations and be quite ready.

Of course, on the higher levels, get your cage mask on and gloves and you can bang some... much fun! That way when going for multiple attacker scenarios and one gets close, you blow them up and get ready for the next one!

Again, much fun!

Much more of course, yet that is the basic idea of Chi sao as an educational tool for fighting.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[skinters]

Okay are you familiar with the term Jing?


An now that you said please share the purpose of drills?

An thankyou for adding to my question by sharing repetitions?


What I should have said is what is the purpose of freestyle chi sau?

well without going into precise interpretations of what a drill is,the purpose of a drill is to repeat a technique until it becomes second nature,so there no secret to chisao or any art just repeat, repeat, repeat.

as for what you should have said...well nothing wrong with your question,and well you cant put it any better than the prof.

yoshiyahu empty your mind....wait there someone much better than me at this ..

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7ijCSu87I9k&feature=related

 

[graychuan]

Im just rehashing an old post that continues to be relavant...

Wordz from GrayCh'uan:
The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.
The drills in Wing Chun and Chi-Sao are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the 'complicated prearranged responses' of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight…chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don't see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That's why Sil Lim Tao doesn't trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful? Chi-Sao is Wing Chun's way to answer these questions.


Wordz from Sifu Ali Rahim:
Chi Sao is nothing more than flipping the switches to an automatic beat down. There should be nothing to think about. When one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stay…
When things are truly understood one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I believe Chi Sau is the Cantonese for Tuishou and it is all basically a form of push hands

Push hands goes a long way in teaching you

Feeling and understanding of power - To learn these you have to practice more of the push hands. then you will get the benefits of stick, hold, touch, and follow.

-Tung Ying Chieh

 

[dungeonworks]

I believe all martial arts have some form of sensitivity training but most are "self evident" from sparring and/or rolling. Wing Chun/Tsun has the monopoly on sensitivity because they actually have a curriculum for achieving it through Chi Sao practice. Boxers have it as do Judoka, Karateka, BJJ players, Escrima/kali/arnis, wrestling, and others. Wing Chun/Tsun just has the most comprehensive sylabus I have ever encountered.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent response, So very true. I totally agree with you!

I believe all martial arts have some form of sensitivity training but most are "self evident" from sparring and/or rolling. Wing Chun/Tsun has the monopoly on sensitivity because they actually have a curriculum for achieving it through Chi Sao practice. Boxers have it as do Judoka, Karateka, BJJ players, Escrima/kali/arnis, wrestling, and others. Wing Chun/Tsun just has the most comprehensive sylabus I have ever encountered.

 

[profesormental]

Also if anyone lineages deals with different uses of Ging or Geng please share your thoughts on how Chi Sau teaches how to use the Eight Gings?

One of the things that has 8 in Wing Chun are the 8 gates. Of course, Wing Chun shows you how to open, close and bait with them.

Fa Jing, or the physical manifestation of Qi through powerful movements should be practiced in Chi sao. There are a few of these as well.

Unfortunately, because of the lack of uniformity in vocabulary, I cannot go further without express definition of Ging/Geng in your training.

And also, how does this relate to Gung Lek in your training?

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Yoshiyahu]

As for Jing here you go....Here is my definition

types of Wing Chun energy
Geng or ging = energy
1. bau ja geng = explode power
2. chi geng = sticking power
3. keng geng = listening power
4. juun geng = drilling power
5. jek jip geng = direct power / gan jip geng = indirect power
6. yaan geng or daai geng = guiding power
7. lin jip geng = connecting power
8. choung geng = aggressive power


http://www.ctwingchun.com/wing-chun-concepts.htm


1. When you say Gung Lek you mean power Generation correct?
So are you asking how does Fa Geng/Jing relate to power Generation?

~Fa Jing is used to generate relaxed but explosive force. A key aspect of fa jing is the recruitment of the body's sinews (tendons, ligaments, and other connective tissues) to release force rather than relying on muscular tension. The Body and the Breath work together in unity. It is more Internal power to External power.

One of the things that has 8 in Wing Chun are the 8 gates. Of course, Wing Chun shows you how to open, close and bait with them.

Fa Jing, or the physical manifestation of Qi through powerful movements should be practiced in Chi sao. There are a few of these as well.

Unfortunately, because of the lack of uniformity in vocabulary, I cannot go further without express definition of Ging/Geng in your training.

And also, how does this relate to Gung Lek in your training?

Juan M. Mercado

 

[profesormental]

First, What does Gung Lek mean to you?

Since to me, Gung Lek means "application of skills", I ask HOW do you create and apply Fa jing?

Here's the thing.

What you have described here, to me are skills and strategies more than "energies".

Vocabulary and how it is used is important, since it may lead towards or away from actual descriptions of execution; the HOW.

I call it Fa Jing for a common term, yet my training for Fa Jing is very metodical, concrete and reproducible. It depends on specific use of biomechanical and anatomical principles and thus I tend to shy away from metaphorical descriptions that mostly point to the WHAT instead of the HOW.

And since the uses for these skills and strategies is so vast, I can convey a meaningful anwer to the specific use of these skills to a specific situation.

Books can be written on these principles alone.

Hope that helps. Good posts. Nice questions.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Gung lik chi sau = heavy sticky hands to develop power

So when you say Lik or Lek I assume you mean Power. Or Power Work.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kung Lek

But lets get away from the chinese and keep it on English level.

Let me get back on topic...You discussed:

peofesormental said:"Fa Jing, or the physical manifestation of Qi through powerful movements should be practiced in Chi sao. There are a few of these as well."

So please discuss how you train or develop Fa Jing. Also please share some ways you can apply Fa Jing Safely while practicing Free style Chi Sau?

First, What does Gung Lek mean to you?

Since to me, Gung Lek means "application of skills", I ask HOW do you create and apply Fa jing?

Here's the thing.

What you have described here, to me are skills and strategies more than "energies".

Vocabulary and how it is used is important, since it may lead towards or away from actual descriptions of execution; the HOW.

I call it Fa Jing for a common term, yet my training for Fa Jing is very metodical, concrete and reproducible. It depends on specific use of biomechanical and anatomical principles and thus I tend to shy away from metaphorical descriptions that mostly point to the WHAT instead of the HOW.

And since the uses for these skills and strategies is so vast, I can convey a meaningful anwer to the specific use of these skills to a specific situation.

Books can be written on these principles alone.

Hope that helps. Good posts. Nice questions.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Si-Je]

Wow, you guys are very knowledgable, and some of what your talking about I've not heard of before. But, I tend to think of WC/WT more simply.
Chi Sau for me begins as soon as you make contact of any sort with an opponent, whether in sparring or self defense.
It may be practiced at first as set motions or drill, but that's just to teach you where to start with. To give a foundation of movements to the practitioner. From there you expound upon that. Improvise, and feel the energy and intention coming from your partner and learn to flow with it instead of fight it.
Sensitivity is a side effect of this type of drilling. It's the end product of a long time learning in a 'safe' environment what works and what won't work when given certian force or energy direction, and how to re-direct that energy (i.e. attack) away from you.
Spontenaety is the key with chi sau, and with sparring or fighting. Without the ability to adapt and improvize at a moments notice a martial artist's training is almost totally useless in combat.

To me chi sau is the heart and guts of combat. When you make that first 'touch' with the opponent and you 'stick' to them like glue overrunning his/her space and taking their force from them and responding to their intention immediately.
ex. a sparring partner feints and short jabbs at me to 'feel me out' before attacking. I catch a jab with a tan sau, even when they pull the arm back, I stick to them arm to arm following their movement to take their space. The gap is bridged, your in chi sau, breathing, living, spontaneous chi sau becomes the heart of your defense and attack, it IS combat.

When an opponent pulls back, your arms act like magnets, hubbie teaches this way of thinking of chi sau. Magnets. Both attracting and repulsing eachother with force. The opponent is too strong their force pushes, I give, but still stick (like a magnet) to them following them, re-directing their force where I need it to be to respond. They break contact, I'm open and availiable to strike them.

The drills at the beginning teach the practitioner "options" in given positions that at first seem like their's no way through the opponent's guard. Too often it seems people don't see past that, and only see chi sau as a drill.
Sure, it's a drill, it's a combat drill. And when your in combat, it IS combat. You'll fight like you do chi sau everytime in sparring or self-defense. It is "the way of intercepting fist".

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Just excellent. You have encompassed so many prinicples of Chi Sau. Chi Sau does infact mean sticky hands. It teaches you to feel and read the energy of your opponent just as you said. AS WELL as Drill into you basic structure and techniques when doing rudimentry Drills. The Tao of Jeet Kune Do as you put Si-Je was an excellent parallel to what were doing in Chi Sau. Learning how to join and disperse your opponents energy and learning how to ride or flow with your opponent until they lead you to opening to strike deep into heart of their center. Excellent By all means If any one else can expand on her Theory. Please feel free to add. These are types of food for thoughts I enjoy reading. This is core of head knowledge of Wing Chun. Please guys feel free to share uplifting ideology and theory about Chi Sau.

Wow, you guys are very knowledgable, and some of what your talking about I've not heard of before. But, I tend to think of WC/WT more simply.
Chi Sau for me begins as soon as you make contact of any sort with an opponent, whether in sparring or self defense.
It may be practiced at first as set motions or drill, but that's just to teach you where to start with. To give a foundation of movements to the practitioner. From there you expound upon that. Improvise, and feel the energy and intention coming from your partner and learn to flow with it instead of fight it.
Sensitivity is a side effect of this type of drilling. It's the end product of a long time learning in a 'safe' environment what works and what won't work when given certian force or energy direction, and how to re-direct that energy (i.e. attack) away from you.
Spontenaety is the key with chi sau, and with sparring or fighting. Without the ability to adapt and improvize at a moments notice a martial artist's training is almost totally useless in combat.

To me chi sau is the heart and guts of combat. When you make that first 'touch' with the opponent and you 'stick' to them like glue overrunning his/her space and taking their force from them and responding to their intention immediately.
ex. a sparring partner feints and short jabbs at me to 'feel me out' before attacking. I catch a jab with a tan sau, even when they pull the arm back, I stick to them arm to arm following their movement to take their space. The gap is bridged, your in chi sau, breathing, living, spontaneous chi sau becomes the heart of your defense and attack, it IS combat.

When an opponent pulls back, your arms act like magnets, hubbie teaches this way of thinking of chi sau. Magnets. Both attracting and repulsing eachother with force. The opponent is too strong their force pushes, I give, but still stick (like a magnet) to them following them, re-directing their force where I need it to be to respond. They break contact, I'm open and availiable to strike them.

The drills at the beginning teach the practitioner "options" in given positions that at first seem like their's no way through the opponent's guard. Too often it seems people don't see past that, and only see chi sau as a drill.
Sure, it's a drill, it's a combat drill. And when your in combat, it IS combat. You'll fight like you do chi sau everytime in sparring or self-defense. It is "the way of intercepting fist".

 

[KamonGuy2]

There is no purpose to chi sao. All our Sifus tricked us...

Seriously though, chi sao is merely a method to train our bodies to react, absorb, work, and develop energy

We build sensitivity through a variety of methods, not just chi sao. And sensitivity is not unique to wing chun

A boxer spars. A wrestler grapples. In wing chun we chi sao. It is our way of improving sructure, energy, footwork, stancework, sensitivity, confrontation, exercise and position

Chi sao is not the ultimate as many wing chunners believe. It is a very handy tool but nothing more

Like my sifu says, when that fight comes, you won't look back and wish you'd done more chi sao, you'll wish you'd train your punch to hit through walls