What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[The Kai]

"Ed Parker knew James Mitose better then anyone else in the early days. Except for John Leoning and Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin (all on the mainland in the early 60s teaching)..." GAB


Where does this come from? From Ed Parker's accounts, most of the training was from Chow. Sonny Gascone et al, are'nt they more Kaju people?

 

[GAB]

"Ed Parker knew James Mitose better then anyone else in the early days. Except for John Leoning and Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin (all on the mainland in the early 60s teaching)..." GAB


Where does this come from? From Ed Parker's accounts, most of the training was from Chow. Sonny Gascone et al, are'nt they more Kaju people?

Hi Kai,

These were persons along with Ed Parker who were in Hawaii during the years James Mitose was teaching...If you were in a small town of less then a few Hundred (not real just an example) Kenpo players, and there were several Dojos and all the players that are your senior are students or knew an instructor...

Don't you think you would know something about that person??? More then likely I am sure if not by reputation (there he is, thats the guy) or 'good morning Grandmaster'... 'Ugh' comes the reply...Hung out at the YMCA...Come on Kai...

Edit..

I am answering your question on the book about which I referred to in another thread here, since it is releated to this thread by the fact that it was one of the books James Mitose was working on while in prison. It was edited by Arnold Golub and published after James Mitose's death.

The name of that book is "In Search of Kenpo---Traditional Japanese Stories"

I have seen it on Thomas Mitose's web site for $79.00...It was given to Thomas by Arnold Golub and was sold originally for $3.00...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

There is a difference between being aware of and knowing a person...


I have that book, save your money!

 

[GAB]

There is a difference between being aware of and knowing a person...


I have that book, save your money!

Kai,

To have "knowledge" and "awareness" is a pretty fine line to be trying to pick apart. But I get the drift...

The Book...
Short stories trying to relay Humility and Knowledge and Awareness through the story, in a setting that is easily understood, sort of like around a camp fire and trying to make something meaningful and not just scary...Much like the Bible in the western civilization setting, not as in depth with history. More like new rather then the old. It has been a way of communication for eons.

What if it was true that he came from a Family art and it is something he learned, that was handed down and everyone else was the borrower and not him???? I guess it is how you want to look at it???
The information is out there you just need to know what you are looking for...

Faith is one thing, believing is another. Documentation is another, quite a few document's have been put up on the San Jose Kenpo site since this discussion and my arrival on these boards in June of last year... I have not seen any thing to change my mind yet...

Lots more to come, I understand GM Ray Arquilla will be letting some of his information out at a seminar to be held in Sacramento, I sure am glad I have a front seat...Next couple of years are going to interesting....

How about this...

People set up web sites to reflect their thoughts and mentality. You go there and come back with what they are trying to project to the viewers...
It is nice to get some insight don't you think?

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Again you kind of lost me:idunno: with the website reference.

Sure I know about campfire stories, and folkloric tradition. I still say save your money.
Since both the books are heavily borrowed from other sources, finding a "family" art may be a impossibility

 

[The Kai]

disregard

 

[Danjo]

Please don't fall into the trap of trying to have a conversation that makes sense with someone who has no intention on doing so. There are some serious problems there.

After the past couple of posts, I'm beginning to see what you mean.

 

[Karazenpo]

A while ago someone had mentioned that there was a current American Kenpo senior who also met Mitose at Mr. Parker's school (although I don't recall if it was the same visit as the 'foot strike' but I think it was) and came away with a whole different impression of Mitose. He had said something like Mitose did a technique on him and hurt him with it. I can't remember what topic it was on or even if it was on this forum but I distinctly remember the story. Does anyone recall this story and who the AK guy was? I thought I copied and saved it in my documents and I'll keep looking but no luck yet. "Joe"

 

[Doc]

A while ago someone had mentioned that there was a current American Kenpo senior who also met Mitose at Mr. Parker's school (although I don't recall if it was the same visit as the 'foot strike' but I think it was) and came away with a whole different impression of Mitose. He had said something like Mitose did a technique on him and hurt him with it. I can't remember what topic it was on or even if it was on this forum but I distinctly remember the story. Does anyone recall this story and who the AK guy was? I thought I copied and saved it in my documents and I'll keep looking but no luck yet. "Joe"

Hey Joe. I don't remember any of the "Ancients" saying that but who knows. I know if it happened it wasn't that day. I was there when he came in and left. And for the record, Mitose did not interact with Ed Parker that day other than the offer of a con scheme that Parker declined to participate in. There was just a group of guys around and Mitose volunteered to "show something." I believe Huk was there but I can't remember because the whole incident was of little note among many. Mitose had no stature or mistique and was just another guy dropping by like they always did in droves to see the "Old Man." If Parker didn't show deference when someone dropped by, than we never noticed. I know I didn't learn he was Mitose until after he was gone, and even then it was "Who?" The name never came up or had much significance until much later when he was on trial. I wish I could remember who he solicited to throw a punch. I wasn't dressed and was just passing through, when this guy with a priests collar solicited the punch. The guy did a nice slow step through punch and Mitose dropped to a close kneel stance and punched downward toward his stationary lead foot making no contact. Than time sorta just "stopped." Everyone kinda looked around at each other as if to say, "Is that it?" There was some discussion about following with a front kick and how vulnerable he was etc. after he left but for us he was just another "nut" who stopped by to show us how "deadly" he was without putting himself in any real jeopardy. It was after the fact and he had left that Parker revealed who he was and what he wanted. Hardly a "blip" in the activity. Not even a log entry.

10-4? eleven robert clear

 

[John Bishop]

"In Search of Kenpo" (the plagiarism continues). This time Mitose has taken common Japanese folk tales, and attached the "Kosho" family name to them. After reading one particular excerpt, I kept wondering why it was so familiar to me. Then I remembered it was a scene from the Akira Kurosawa movie "Seven Samurai". Except in "Seven Samurai" nobody was named "Kosho".

 

[GAB]

"In Search of Kenpo" (the plagiarism continues). This time Mitose has taken common Japanese folk tales, and attached the "Kosho" family name to them. After reading one particular excerpt, I kept wondering why it was so familiar to me. Then I remembered it was a scene from the Akira Kurosawa movie "Seven Samurai". Except in "Seven Samurai" nobody was named "Kosho".

Hi,

Maybe when they made the movie they did'nt want to pay residuals so they didn't include the name:idunno: ...

I think in the movie with Clint Eastwood which was a western that took the plot and had a bunch of wooden boxes made out of pine trees, to show respect or something like that...:uhyeah:

Yep, I have to dig deep for a rebuttel on that one.

It was one of the reasons I was asking over on the Shotokan thread. Robert R said he thought it went back to "Bushi" Matsumura, I think it could even go back to the Satsuma Clan when they invaded the Ryukyu Kingdom...Then that would be the link with the Samuri and Yoshida and Tracy Kenpo.

I even posted a thread about it, and Gichin Funa-koshi, or was it Kosho?
Is one plural???:whip: Maybe James Mitose, was not the best speller either...

Sorry that is just how my Synaptics jump...

Regards, Gary

 

[Mekosho]

Wonders if the similarity between the kempo mottos, creeds whatever you want to call them, of James Mitose and Ed Parkers is anything like plagerism? Just curious....Was it not Mr. Parker who changed slightly the words from the orginal?

 

[Doc]

Wonders if the similarity between the kempo mottos, creeds whatever you want to call them, of James Mitose and Ed Parkers is anything like plagerism? Just curious....Was it not Mr. Parker who changed slightly the words from the orginal?

If you go down that road the everything Al tracy has to say is true than ...

 

[Mekosho]

Who's to say they are wrong? You? I mean, who is most credible here?

 

[Mekosho]

Whats the location of your web site so I can check out the research you have done? Am not meaning to sound rude, but seriously, the Tracys word is not gospel by no means, but at least they have offered some kind of documentation....where do you get your info? word of mouth? Is no more credible

 

[Doc]

Whats the location of your web site so I can check out the research you have done? Am not meaning to sound rude, but seriously, the Tracys word is not gospel by no means, but at least they have offered some kind of documentation....where do you get your info? word of mouth? Is no more credible

The key word is not "documentaion," but credible documentation, which apparently none of it existed before Parker passed away. The Tracy's have a history of bashing Parker to make their switch to the Mitose Lineage, (bazzar in itself) reasonable. Yeah sometimes word of mouth is better, especially if you heard it from the horses yourself because you were there, much like I was. Believe what you want. Gary has accomplished his mission. Dragging up old garbage that has been settled here many times before about an art he doesn't study.

If some spent as much time on their art as they do rehashing the same old bogus history, we'd all be better off.

 

[Mekosho]

Okay...hold on cause this may be just a little hard to deal with...but th Mr. Parker, definatly a GREAT martial artist, an innovater.......but believe it or not...and I know this will come as a shock to alot on here, but Mr. Parker was......human...yep, thats right..human, so to say credible documentation did not exsist before him is ludicris...

As far as being there...I will pose the question I have asked so many times on this board...when Mr. Mitose did his "silly" technique on a highly trained Parker blackbelt did he get hit? The way I hear it...ummm from the horses mouth, was that he actually escaped the punch (Hmmm thats what they teach us to do first) then hit the student on his foot...so lets see, strike, escape, strike back...no matter how silly it appeared...IT WORKED!!!!!!!!

 

[Matt]

My 'kempo brother' Dan Weston was gracious enough to give me a copy of James M. Mitose's: What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu) and for that I sincerely thank him. I have gone over this book pretty thorough so far and there's much more in the book than the breakdown on the Tracy website. Here's what I have found:

The book consists of the following breakdown of technique (curriculum):

1) 11 punching & striking defenses

2) 7 kicking defenses

3) 26 escape defenses (grab arts)

4) 8 lock, break & throw defenses

5) 17 weapon defenses (knife, sword-which could double for a club & gun)

6) 20 women & girls defenses

So, far, it looks like a pretty extensive curriuclum to me, especially taken into consideration it was written in 1947. There's 69 self defense techniques with an additional 20 tailored to females for a total of 89 techniques.

There is also a section of 7 kenpo exercises for punching, striking including forearms and elbows and another section devoted to 4 kicking exercises, the fourth combining punching & kicking. That's all the physical.

A close scrutiny of these techniques show a 'core' similiaritiy with all the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo systems in existence today. It's all in black & white, objectively speaking. It's all there. The rudiments, the foundation, the basic structure and framework. Just add the evolution of 'continuous motion' with increased rapid fire striking from the kung fu influences of the succeeding teachers of this kenpo through the lineage and it is very clear that this system is the root art of these contemporary kenpo/kempo arts.

Now, the philosophy of Mitose in this publication is everything every parent would want their child to learn from a martial art. I'll go out on the limb to say it's is A #1 in anyone's opinion! HOWEVER, AND THIS IS A BIG HOWEVER, this philosophy is totally hypocritical of the way Mitose lived his life! Not even close. It's the old 'do as I say, not as I do' or simply one failing to 'practice what they preach'. It's really too bad because the book really has it together. If one didn't know better they could never connect the crimes committed by Mitose to the author of this book. It seems like he had a split personality.

Again, it's a damn good curriculum, even by today's standards. If someone today learned the techniques in that book and added continuous motion and more rapid fire hits or essentially principles and concepts of the Chinese arts, you'd have a damn good system. I'd update the weapon defenses a little, especially knife and gun to what we have learned over the years but still a good solid base to start with. Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.

It was also very interesting to note that on Otcober 4, 1947, Tautao (Rubberman) Higami, then president of the Hawaii Judo Kan & middleweight wrestling champion of the world who stated in a letter he carefully scrutinized and studied the manuscript of this book and gave it an excellent review and recommendation congratulating Mitose on his effort and wishing him to succeed in his endeavors. *Note: Tautao Higami was also a teacher of Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon from around 1945 to 1949 making his first level cerification in judo.

All in all, this book is worth reading. (I have the fourth printing, 2nd edition 1981 which is the orignal manuscript with new 'Introductory Notes' by Bruce Juchnik, Rick Alemany and Arnold M. Golub. I suggest it is read before drawing any final conclusions. This book is great to compare with Robert Trias' 'The Hand is My Sword' (Okinawan Shorei Ryu Kenpo Karate) and Ed Parker's 'Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist & the Empty Hand' (many similiarites of technique). With respect to all, "Joe'

Hey Joe-

I'm glad you brought the topic up, as it caused me to do a little 're-reading'. To warm up, I gave another look at Henry S. Okizaki's book, The Science of Self Defense for Girls and Women which he published in 1929. It is a treatise on, you guessed it, self defense for girls and women. It coincidentally contains:

A whole bunch of pages with 'Letters of recommendation' from local notables.
4 wrist grabs, 2 lapel grabs, 4 'body grabs' (bear hugs, etc.), a two person grab, how to avoid blows to the head, a hair grab, how to hold and control an assailant after a grab defense(3 off of fake handshakes, etc.), one headlock, three knife defenses, and three gun defenses. 25 techniques. Not bad for 1929.

Taking a gander at the table of contents for the WISD women's defense section, I see:

6 Wrist grabs, handshake defense, choke, front embrace, lapel grab, back and side hold, dagger/knife attack (3), pistol defense (3). 20 total, not far off the mark.

All in all, some good, some bad in each book.

So then I whipped out, Okinawan Kempo Motobu Choki's 1926 book, and took a peek at the Makiwara section. The basic punching and kicking photos are the same, but Mitose seems to have elaborated. The punch techniques look similar, but not exact.

I don't have a copy of Mutsu's book on hand (yet!), but if you go to:
http://www.kempokan.com/Glastonbury/books.html you can get a taste of the similarity.


So what, he plagiarized the book - old news. At least he stole good stuff! He even does seem to have some ideas to contribute on top of what he 'borrowed'. What is the book worth? As insight as to what was 'state of the art' at that time, something perhaps. There is something really compelling to me, however, that isn't written in the book. It's not a technique, nor a concept, but it tells me volumes about James Mitose, and his story of Kenpo (or Kempo if you read all the letters of recommendation in the beginning).

Mitose claims to have studied most of his life, but his posture and body mechanics give him away. Looking at the photos in Motobu's book, his posture is amazingly aligned, his stances are perfection. The agreement between his hips, shoulders, knees and feet indicate someone who is very comfortable with their art. Someone with alot of miles on the odometer, so to speak.

Now look at Mitose's spine. On virtually all the high line attacks, his upperbody trails his hips. He is shying away from the punch. I see this accomodation of the attacker at the expense of proper form in people with just a few years of training. It changes the connection to the hips immensely.

Head downstairs and look at his stances. All over the place. Even on his finishing strikes his stances are completely misaligned. The weight is often shifted in the wrong leg, the hips are not free to move with the strike, and there are often times when his leg is dangerously exposed at full extension.
These are not the stances of a 'Master'.

Now look at his arms on parries. He ends up with his arms tied up accross his center line in many photos. This is a man walking through someone else's material. He may have it memorized, but he's just performing it at a mediocre level.

It's not the material in his book, he borrowed it from several masters. The material is fine. The thing that leaps off the page at me now (after this re-read) is his performance of it. I guess that Biomechanics course I took last semester paid off.

 

[Danjo]

Okay...hold on cause this may be just a little hard to deal with...but th Mr. Parker, definatly a GREAT martial artist, an innovater.......but believe it or not...and I know this will come as a shock to alot on here, but Mr. Parker was......human...yep, thats right..human, so to say credible documentation did not exsist before him is ludicris...

Ummm...how does Gm Parker being human have anything to do with documentation?

As far as being there...I will pose the question I have asked so many times on this board...
So many times? You have a total of 15 posts. (update: I guess you're right. Out of the 15 posts, 4 have asked or referenced this question and Doc has answered it before as someone who was there.)

when Mr. Mitose did his "silly" technique on a highly trained Parker blackbelt did he get hit? The way I hear it...ummm from the horses mouth

Who is this?

was that he actually escaped the punch (Hmmm thats what they teach us to do first) then hit the student on his foot...so lets see, strike, escape, strike back...no matter how silly it appeared...IT WORKED!!!!!!!!

This was explained above. The uke did a slow step through punch. Was he supposed to really try to smash a guy dressed like a priest without Parker's okay?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There is an interesting thingy that happens in history. If someone writes about it enough, long enough, loudly enough, it tends to work it's way into the accepted body of documentation. The Tracy website has managed to be the seed source -- aside from the guy who hangs out with the actual killer, and has granted himself glorious accolades and titles -- for much of the disinformation regarding the Mitose lineage, and the "verifiable" history of kenpo.

Mekosho: I've spoken with a couple of the kenpo oldsters who were there when Mitose stopped by. To a man, they have all said his technique was rudimentary & slow, but solid. A solid Japanese block-punch-kick man in the presence of Chinese kenpo guys who could outspeed him at will. Having been introduced to a guy they were told was Parkers kempo grandfather, Mr. Parker got odd looks and sideways glances from most of those present. Not one of them have put to paper as much flappage as the Tracy's have.

If we are to believe the Tracy (& kenpo cousins) propaganda machine, we are all kempo descendants of Sohei monks, reaching back to the insights of the Great Shining One, or the Yoshida's, or some other such crap (a lot more romantic and appealing than the admission that we're all just a bunch of jerks on the bus, pursuing a hobby that's the brainchild of a core nucleus of guys). Unfotunately, because they are prolific writers, and so many searching the known database of the world (i.e., the internet) will happen accross the Tracy site, 50 years from now will find thiers' the accepted version of history, with the voices of "those who were there" having fallen silent to the sands of time.

Was there a Troy? Likely, since multiple sources of the time relate a Turkish city-state that feuded with Greeks. Was it besieged by a thousand ships from every Greek kingdom over a chick with a hot bod and comely face, and fought by Gods and the the Sons of Gods? Yet, that is the written version of the story of Troy that survives to this day, so it is the reference to which all other references are compared.

Atlantis? An occasional mythological reference to someplace that used to be, but isn't anymore, has turned into a global fascination which has led to the fabrication of first-race legends (now accepted as fact by many New-Agers who consider themselves reincarnated Atlanteans), and even drove prominent, educated members of the 3rd reich to search for it's remnants and technology...all off a rumor, sprouted from a myth...told enough times, that it developed a life of it's own, and influenced the minds of people way beyond anything even remotely reasonable.

The Tracy take on the history of kenpo? ...c'mahn. Use your noodle, lad.

I'm sure any of the kenpo conspiracy theorists & fantastic historians would love to have their version of history be regarded as the next Iliad, with them as the next Homer. Problem in this case is, some of the soldiers from the walls of Troy are still around to tell it like it was, before the "fantastic" is all that remains for posterity. Some who've passed told of their experiences before they slid off the plate of life, so too many still remain with different versions of "the truth". In 50 years, the Tracy history will be gospel, with no survivors left to report history, accurately. Hell, maybe a new religion will start with the convict being elevated to diety, and representing the road to salvation?

D.