What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[John Bishop]

How the hell could Mitose have pulled that off with students and ukes of the likes of William Chow and Thomas Young? Why did they ever not question this or did they? and we just never heard about it. They would have had to pick up on this! I don't get it. "Joe"

It's obvious that they did pick up on it. We seem to forget that most of Mitose's black belts left him to train with others.
William Chow left.
Bobby Lowe went with Mas Oyama and Kyokushinkai.
Paul Yamaguichi went with Chow, then Emperado, then Goju Ryu.
Arthur Keave also left.
I have never heard anyone say any great things about Thomas Young, other then he was Mitose's "first" black belt. Not to say that he was a bad martial artist, but there are no stories or remembrances of him being a exceptionable martial artist either.
The only notable story I heard about Thomas Young from people who knew him, was that he would refer to himself as "Dr. Young", even though he a was a "mailman" by profession.

 

[The Kai]

I've seen some pictures of Funakoshi with similar issues. However, the trigger that pointed me in the mechanical direction was the pictures of Motobu Choki. He was tight, consistent, and mechanically sound.

In fact, this points to the idea that Gary brought up, the fighter vs. the Ph. D.

Motobu was a fighter, all his life. Funakoshi was a retired schoolteacher. I guess that's why the pictures of Motobu look like that. This is exactly what I mean by the pictures telling me all I need to know about Mitose.

Matt

If you look at picture "c" on page 19 you will see that on the step back, his foot has actually circled behind itself!! Now the Down Block is no longer strong and covering, but a swat behind your own back. Would he do that step on purpose? No, it is usally a sign of someone who is rushed or unpolished in stepping.
Probably why the counter punch is more of a flicking motion!

Would Mitose publish a misleading book why???
Also he stressed loyality, not asking questions and blind adherence to his way, sound familiar??

 

[Matt]

Here's another thing that occured to me as I was reading this: What if the book didn't represent what Mitose taught at all? What if it was merely put together for the money as Adriano Emperado stated? What if they came to Mitose and said, make a book and we'll give you money and he then looked around at the books that existed in Japanese and decided to imitate them? Why would they come to Mitose and ask him to make a book? Well, he was the first one to open up the art to non-Asians, so who else would they ask? This might explain a lot of the discrepancies noted above, and explain why Chow, Emperado, Young etc. were all willing to train with him. Why, after all, would Chow take Empeado to Mitose if he was nothing more than a conman? So here's the question I have: How closely did the techniques in "What is Self Defense?" represent what was actually taught by Mitose?

I don't think he put it together just for the money. It was that and the credibility it would provide. There's a book on marketing that I read that pretty much said, write a book / article / etc. so that you will be perceived as 'the local expert'.

"They" didn't ask him to write a book. The manuscript was written in 1947.
The first 1953 edition had a rubber stamp / pencil copyright notice.It was privately published, by Mitose and Arthur Keawe.

Matt

 

[Karazenpo]

Yes Matt, I agree, Funakoshi was one of the ones I was specifically thinking of. Danjo, you have an excellent point! There very well could be something to that. Let's see if we can ascertain exactly what Mitose taught to these guys. Anyone?

 

[Danjo]

It's obvious that they did pick up on it. We seem to forget that most of Mitose's black belts left him to train with others.
William Chow left.
Bobby Lowe went with Mas Oyama and Kyokushinkai.
Paul Yamaguichi went with Chow, then Emperado, then Goju Ryu.
Arthur Keave also left.
I have never heard anyone say any great things about Thomas Young, other then he was Mitose's "first" black belt. Not to say that he was a bad martial artist, but there are no stories or remembrances of him being a exceptionable martial artist either.
The only notable story I heard about Thomas Young from people who knew him, was that he would refer to himself as "Dr. Young", even though he a was a "mailman" by profession.

Good point. It still makes me wonder why Professor Chow took Sijo Emperado to Mitose. Did these guys leave Mitose, or did they go other ways when Mitose left for California?

 

[Karazenpo]

It's obvious that they did pick up on it. We seem to forget that most of Mitose's black belts left him to train with others.
William Chow left.
Bobby Lowe went with Mas Oyama and Kyokushinkai.
Paul Yamaguichi went with Chow, then Emperado, then Goju Ryu.
Arthur Keave also left.
I have never heard anyone say any great things about Thomas Young, other then he was Mitose's "first" black belt. Not to say that he was a bad martial artist, but there are no stories or remembrances of him being a exceptionable martial artist either.
The only notable story I heard about Thomas Young from people who knew him, was that he would refer to himself as "Dr. Young", even though he a was a "mailman" by profession.

True, John, true but a lot of students leave their instructors shortly after black belt. Parker left Chow, does that mean Chow wasn't a capable instructor? Cerio left Pesare shortly after and Pesare's still teaching. I remember you saying they left because he only taught basics over and over or maybe they left because they saw the other evil side of him. Maybe he was selling rank for big bucks? They very well could have left because they figured him out but why didn't they just say it? Why didn't any of them say it? Why doesn't Sijo Emperado say it? Why would he say he had the abilities of a master instructor? I had Professor Scott ask him outright and it's posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe, that's another sticking point, know what I mean? Grandmaster Kuoha also states in the positive. So much controversy.........

 

[The Kai]

Maybe publishing the book gave him a lot of crecibility (which is why I wish I could write better or at least appear better looking in photos). Together with the temple stories? By the time the gilt wore off, people were already taken.


Remember Columbus dicovered america while looking for something else, maybe we all need a muse to release those things beneath your surface

 

[John Bishop]

"They" didn't ask him to write a book. The manuscript was written in 1947.
The first 1953 edition had a rubber stamp / pencil copyright notice.It was privately published, by Mitose and Arthur Keawe.

Matt

Exactly Matt.
Mitose had some of his students, Chow, Young, Keave, Eli, McCandless, invest in the "self published" book. Dr. Keave did the editing and corrected the bad english.
Sort of shoots down all the arguments that "the publisher spelled Kempo wrong", or "the publisher demanded more pictures, so the true aspects of Kosho Ryu were not really shown".
Truth is, Mitose was the publisher.

 

[The Kai]

Exactly Matt.
Mitose had some of his students, Chow, Young, Keave, Eli, McCandless, invest in the "self published" book. Dr. Keave did the editing and corrected the bad english.
Sort of shoots down all the arguments that "the publisher spelled Kempo wrong", or "the publisher demanded more pictures, so the true aspects of Kosho Ryu were not really shown".
Truth is, Mitose was the publisher.

Wow

 

[John Bishop]

True, John, true but a lot of students leave their instructors shortly after black belt. Parker left Chow, does that mean Chow wasn't a capable instructor? .........

Parker moved 7000 miles away to attend college. Then moved to California. It wasn't like today, where you can video train with your instructor, or email him everyday. They grew apart. They had differant philosophies.
The best instructor in the world is useless if your thousands of miles away, and can't train with him.

I remember you saying they left because he only taught basics over and over or maybe they left because they saw the other evil side of him. Maybe he was selling rank for big bucks?
.........

You read the interview with Sijo Emperado. And it's now on DVD also. He said that 'after he got his black belt from Chow, he went to get his instructors certificate from Mitose". "But that he was angry when he found out that Mitose had been selling the same ranks to others".
At that time (1952) Mitose was still considered Chow's kenpo instructor. For the most part the break up occurred in 1953 when Mitose left the islands and abandoned all his students.

They very well could have left because they figured him out but why didn't they just say it? Why didn't any of them say it?
.........

Back then you didn't. I guess you said it by your leaving someones school.

Why doesn't Sijo Emperado say it? Why would he say he had the abilities of a master instructor? I had Professor Scott ask him outright and it's posted on the Kajukenbo Cafe, that's another sticking point, know what I mean? Grandmaster Kuoha also states in the positive. So much controversy.........

"Master" is a relevant word. There has to be something to compare it to. I've never heard or read anywhere, where Mitose's abilities are ever put on the same level as: Chow, Emperado, Parker, Lowe.
In Sijo's eyes, Mitose was "the master" because he was his teachers teacher. But I've never heard him or anyone else say that they were in awe of his abilities.
Was he more proficient at fighting then the untrained that would come into a dojo and want to try on the instructor. Probably. But you really don't hear any stories like that either.
I would love to hear some pre-prison stories of Mitose's martial prowess.
But all I hear is stories of his schemes. Even his book was a scheme to make money. And he cheated his own students out of money to publish it.

So lets hear some factual accounts of Mitose's martial arts prowess.
And some factual accounts of how he strove to improve his students lives.
Instead of all the mystique and hero worship built on lies and deception, purpetrated by a man desperatly trying to get out of prison.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you John for your answers. I knew you would clairfy my questions.

John stated: "So lets hear some factual accounts of Mitose's martial arts prowess.
And some factual accounts of how he strove to improve his students lives.
Instead of all the mystique and hero worship built on lies and deception, purpetrated by a man desperatly trying to get out of prison."
__________________

I have to say John is correct on this. Is there anyone who can give us some positive facts, actual accounts, true stories of this man? Someone? Hanshi Juchnik? Anyone?

 

[Karazenpo]

Here's something that just hit me. In the book I have it shows Mitose, Chow, Harry Pang, Simeone M. Eli and Thomas Young doing a self defense demonstration and there are thank you letters and so forth for the demo and yes, it shows Mitose doing a defense against a four man attack. Now, wouldn't other area martial artists attend these demos to see what the other guy has got? I mean some of the big wigs of the day must have seen these demonstrations and it does show Mitose participating himself and not just his students. Wouldn't they have noticed if he was incompetant for who he had said he was? Good question I think.

 

[Danjo]

Parker moved 7000 miles away to attend college. Then moved to California. It wasn't like today, where you can video train with your instructor, or email him everyday. They grew apart. They had differant philosophies.
The best instructor in the world is useless if your thousands of miles away, and can't train with him.


You read the interview with Sijo Emperado. And it's now on DVD also. He said that 'after he got his black belt from Chow, he went to get his instructors certificate from Mitose". "But that he was angry when he found out that Mitose had been selling the same ranks to others".
At that time (1952) Mitose was still considered Chow's kenpo instructor. For the most part the break up occurred in 1953 when Mitose left the islands and abandoned all his students.


Back then you didn't. I guess you said it by your leaving someones school.


"Master" is a relevant word. There has to be something to compare it to. I've never heard or read anywhere, where Mitose's abilities are ever put on the same level as: Chow, Emperado, Parker, Lowe.
In Sijo's eyes, Mitose was "the master" because he was his teachers teacher. But I've never heard him or anyone else say that they were in awe of his abilities.
Was he more proficient at fighting then the untrained that would come into a dojo and want to try on the instructor. Probably. But you really don't hear any stories like that either.
I would love to hear some pre-prison stories of Mitose's martial prowess.
But all I hear is stories of his schemes. Even his book was a scheme to make money. And he cheated his own students out of money to publish it.

So lets hear some factual accounts of Mitose's martial arts prowess.
And some factual accounts of how he strove to improve his students lives.
Instead of all the mystique and hero worship built on lies and deception, purpetrated by a man desperatly trying to get out of prison.

There we go. Even Thomas Mitose ( a person that most people have a lot of respect for) said that his dad taught in a bizzare way by telling him to imagine jumping off a cliff and hugging someone etc.

 

[Benjp]

Hanshi Juchnik was in communication with several of the senior members of the original self-defense club (Thomas Young, Paul Yamaguchi). In fact, Paul Yamaguchi regularly attends the Gathering (Thomas Young did too, when he was alive).

Why would these seniors support Mitose's "prison-learning student" if they believed that Mitose was a fraud? Furthermore, why would they support Hanshi Juchnik at all?

Ben

 

[Benjp]

Originally posted by Matt:

I've seen some pictures of Funakoshi with similar issues. However, the trigger that pointed me in the mechanical direction was the pictures of Motobu Choki. He was tight, consistent, and mechanically sound.

In defense of the pictures...

The way that I'm taught Kosho Ryu self defense is to escape with both the attacker and defender unharmed.

We're taught onna (female, percussion) striking and otoko (male) atemi waza (striking tricks).

The percussion striking is faster, and provides (if done properly) for a quick and safe escape. It's similar to faking, but provides instant tactile feedback and reaction.

The otoko striking (characterized by sound body alignment, power, and vital striking locations) is highly discouraged and shouldn't really even be used.

When the pictures are thought of as techniques, or as a means to an end (typical of non-Kosho kenpo) then they look ridiculous. To me, however, they look like the type of things my instructor might do.. Yes, the pictures are described in the text as techniques. But this was to be one of multiple volumes.

Ben

Disclaimer: I am a student of Juchnik Hanshi's system of Kosho-ryu Kempo. I try to keep an open mind about the history and other Kenpo systems, and I've learned a tremendous amount from this board. No disrespect intended..

 

[GAB]

The problem there really is'nt a ton of credible documentation much earlier that the 1930's. Whether or not you base your time line off Ed Parker or not. It is not the advent of Parker that stoped the documentation! There just nothing beyond a few leaps of logic and history.
Punching to the foot, clever?-yes. Practical?, maybe. Efficent?, debatable. Awe inspiring?, seems not! The problem, in my opinion, is the lack of a follow up or escape option in addition to your vulnerabilty to kick or knee strikes. Would it work? Thinking that you need punch in a pretty solid manner to go thru footwear and if you miss is some pretty unforgiving floor-Risky

Ed parker wanted to join Trias org?? Is this in any way verifiable?

Hi Kai,

It is in Hanshi's book "to Fall Seven Rise Eight"..

Hi all,
Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose..Interesting. He stood and did things with escaping in mind and you had to have been there to understand..Hanshi teachs all of the moves and explains them..Go and buy a few of his DVDs and you will be better informed.

Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???

I remember a class fighter in a welter weight class I had to arrest, I choked him out and then in the jail, I had to come to the probationers aid and choke him out again, he spent the night in the padded cell...Red Lopez gym in Pacoima... One of there tough 150 pounders or so...these tough small guys are not fighting tough big guys, why, they would be hurt really bad... 5 pounds they change a weight division...Heavy weight goes without saying...

I am currently 6-2 220 and I work out. Just got back 60 minutes on the bags and then worked sticks on the bags for another 30 minutes...Broke a bungy attachment and had to fix it, to much streaching and it gave at the s hook came back at me I avoided it and escaped...Great thing to know how to escape...

Foot work is really important and that is what FMA is all about...Of course you have hands and sticks but you need to know foot work..Bernard Hopkins knows foot, he goes from the left lead to the right lead and back again and he
dominates...HaHa I am over here, now I am in your face, now I am over here...

Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...

I have seen some stances in Ed Parkers Books that make me laugh...I won't bad mouth his movement, I just find some of the stuff he said wrong...Nick Adams all 150 lbs of him, and Ed Parker now that was great. Right...Hollywood...Heck Elvis was not a big man but he towered over Ed so they had to hand pick the pictures...

I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...

EDIT
Danjo...Ok I will try...Thanks for the heads up I do go into that mode very easily...Regards...
Regards, Gary

 

[Danjo]

Hi Kai,

It is in Hanshi's book "to Fall Seven Rise Eight"..

Hi all,
Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose..Interesting. He stood and did things with escaping in mind and you had to have been there to understand..Hanshi teachs all of the moves and explains them..Go and buy a few of his DVDs and you will be better informed.

Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???

I remember a class fighter in a welter weight class I had to arrest, I choked him out and then in the jail, I had to come to the probationers aid and choke him out again, he spent the night in the padded cell...Red Lopez gym in Pacoima... One of there tough 150 pounders or so...these tough small guys are not fighting tough big guys, why, they would be hurt really bad... 5 pounds they change a weight division...Heavy weight goes without saying...

I am currently 6-2 220 and I work out. Just got back 60 minutes on the bags and then worked sticks on the bags for another 30 minutes...Broke a bungy attachment and had to fix it, to much streaching and it gave at the s hook came back at me I avoided it and escaped...Great thing to know how to escape...

Foot work is really important and that is what FMA is all about...Of course you have hands and sticks but you need to know foot work..Bernard Hopkins knows foot, he goes from the left lead to the right lead and back again and he
dominates...HaHa I am over here, now I am in your face, now I am over here...

Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...

I have seen some stances in Ed Parkers Books that make me laugh...I won't bad mouth his movement, I just find some of the stuff he said wrong...Nick Adams all 150 lbs of him, and Ed Parker now that was great. Right...Hollywood...Heck Elvis was not a big man but he towered over Ed so they had to hand pick the pictures...

I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...

Regards, Gary

Can we say non sequitur? I'm sorry GAB, but I can really only understand about half of what you write. It is as though you are trying to be cryptic. either that or you're thinking that the rest of your unfinished sentences are self evident when they are not. No offense, but please try to write a bit more clearly.

 

[John Bishop]

Hi Kai,

Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???

Regards, Gary

The DVD's are not hard to get.
They're advertized on my website, and a few other Kajukenbo websites.
They're availiable on the Kajukenbo Cafe (unless you've been banned there)
They're listed here at the Martial Talk ProShop.
In fact we even sell a few copies on EBAY.

http://kajukenboinfo.com/kajukenbo_products.html

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20828

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7137056967&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

 

[TChase]

A while ago someone had mentioned that there was a current American Kenpo senior who also met Mitose at Mr. Parker's school (although I don't recall if it was the same visit as the 'foot strike' but I think it was) and came away with a whole different impression of Mitose. He had said something like Mitose did a technique on him and hurt him with it. I can't remember what topic it was on or even if it was on this forum but I distinctly remember the story. Does anyone recall this story and who the AK guy was? I thought I copied and saved it in my documents and I'll keep looking but no luck yet. "Joe"

I'm pretty sure Mr. Pick was there when Mitose visited Ed Parkers school. I'll ask him what he thought about Mitose when I see him in about a month or so.

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi Kai,

It is in Hanshi's book "to Fall Seven Rise Eight"..

Hi all,
Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose..Interesting. He stood and did things with escaping in mind and you had to have been there to understand..Hanshi teachs all of the moves and explains them..Go and buy a few of his DVDs and you will be better informed.

Hi, John I tried to buy a DVD from your group, they did not even respond back. I can understand, that is a very closed board and all... Not even close to the ability to discuss on this board... Autocratic come's to mind...
Will you sell me one, it is for a good cause, is my money no good???

I remember a class fighter in a welter weight class I had to arrest, I choked him out and then in the jail, I had to come to the probationers aid and choke him out again, he spent the night in the padded cell...Red Lopez gym in Pacoima... One of there tough 150 pounders or so...these tough small guys are not fighting tough big guys, why, they would be hurt really bad... 5 pounds they change a weight division...Heavy weight goes without saying...

I am currently 6-2 220 and I work out. Just got back 60 minutes on the bags and then worked sticks on the bags for another 30 minutes...Broke a bungy attachment and had to fix it, to much streaching and it gave at the s hook came back at me I avoided it and escaped...Great thing to know how to escape...

Foot work is really important and that is what FMA is all about...Of course you have hands and sticks but you need to know foot work..Bernard Hopkins knows foot, he goes from the left lead to the right lead and back again and he
dominates...HaHa I am over here, now I am in your face, now I am over here...

Static sucks OK... Talk all you want about it, it still sucks...Hanshi Bruce wrote quite a few books, how many have read any of them??? I have 50 books by different authors and still I buy more and DVD's and I still think Hanshi knows what he is talking about, the book you are bad mouthing is 55+ years...Old...There is good and bad keep it in the right perspective...

I have seen some stances in Ed Parkers Books that make me laugh...I won't bad mouth his movement, I just find some of the stuff he said wrong...Nick Adams all 150 lbs of him, and Ed Parker now that was great. Right...Hollywood...Heck Elvis was not a big man but he towered over Ed so they had to hand pick the pictures...

I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...

EDIT
Danjo...Ok I will try...Thanks for the heads up I do go into that mode very easily...Regards...
Regards, Gary

Gary stated: I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture...

I say: Gary, I'm not trying to do good by anybody if that's what you mean, I am trying to get at the TRUTH and if the TRUTH slights someone that is not my problem, that is theirs.

Now, Gary, by the same token, I happen to agree with you here: "Now you are raging on stills and we went through this on the Tatum thread only now those who stuck up for the problem with stills want to bad mouth Mitose."

Again, I'm not taking sides, I am not trying to win one side over the other, it's simply a search for the truth. I am attempting to present both sides when something credible is being stated. I have approached John the same way but he hasn't said this: "I thought you were doing good Joe, now I get the picture..." he simply explained his viewpoint so please, do not take offense, yes, I will disagree with you or anyone else if I feel it is in all fairness. Respectfully, Joe