What IS racism?

[Archangel M]

Let me state that I don't post this with any personal agenda or racial agenda. It's just a video with some info on this topic. It's pretty controversial and illustrates the issue of if we can discuss stats based on race w/o descending into "racism".

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if you are not willing to listen to the whole thing skip to 7:29 it addresses arrest stats, a topic I have seen mentioned here already.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To me, common sense would tell me that it would rain more in a forest type area (Oregon) than in a desert type area (Arizonia).

I misunderstood you. I thought you were encouraging us to accept the raw data as significant without parsing it; seeing such attempts as some kind of tomfoolery.

All the rest I am in complete agreement with, that was why I stated that the data shows overall that white people commit more crimes and more violent crimes and ended with the Twain quote about statistics.

Originally, I had in my post about the data not telling you "who" is committing the crimes etc. but I was in a hurry and didn't finish that thought. In it, I was going to compare one of the stats that was out of whack with percentages and talk about murder. How many of the "murders" are gang related vs. heat of the moment vs. other crime gone mad vs. drunk driving deaths etc.

In the end, as you already stated better than me. The data gives a broad brush stroke and doesn't really tell us much more than that.

Then we are in agreement; my apologies for not understanding that.

 

[punisher73]

I misunderstood you. I thought you were encouraging us to accept the raw data as significant without parsing it; seeing such attempts as some kind of tomfoolery.



Then we are in agreement; my apologies for not understanding that.

No problems, academic laziness on my part for not fleshing out my statement more.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As to what is racism. When I had Sociology in college, I remember this discussion and what was the difference between racism and prejudice. The textbook we used (can't remember quite honestly for giving it as a source) defined 'racism' as the ACTIONS against someone based on color and prejudicism. Prejudice was the attitude and beliefs aspect of it.

I believe that ALL people are prejudice. That is how we are as humans. ALL of us pre-judge based on personal experience or beliefs given to us from parents, teachers, society, peers etc. But, not all people act on those beliefs. We can all think of examples of all races and ages where they did something and we thought to ourself and were surprised that they acted that way. It is because we had "pre-judged" them on factors that in our experience would have led to a different set of behaviors.

I don't think a person is or is not a racist or a bigot or prejudiced based simply upon how they act. I think how they feel matters too. One must also consider that there are private actions and public ones. A racist might shake a person's hand and wish they did not have to do it. They might attempt to apply anti-discrimination laws evenly at work, but tell racist jokes to their friends at home. They don't stop being what they are because of the public face they present. In some cases (and I am thinking of my own father here), it simply makes them a liar and a racist.

From my point of view, all racists are bigots. All bigots are prejudiced. But the reverse is not true.

Prejudice is simply what it seems - pre-judging. For example, I am prejudiced against drug dealers. I do not know their circumstances, nor do I want to. I dislike them with no other reasoning than that I dislike them. That's a prejudice. And yes, we all do it, to one extent or another. Not all prejudices are wrong.

Bigots are those who are prejudiced against others for reasons based on race, religion, culture, language, national origin, and ethnicity. Archie Bunker was a bigot; he disliked Polish people among others. All racists are bigots, but not all bigots are racists.

Racists are bigots who restrict their prejudice to a dislike based on race, as the term says.

The term 'racist' is often misused; people say it when they mean 'bigot'. There are also areas of gray; a person who is Jewish is a member of a religion (presumably), a culture, an ethnicity, and perhaps (depending on definition) a race. Dislike of Jewish people has often been considered racism; perhaps it would be more appropriate to call it bigotry, but that is perhaps splitting hairs.

 

[punisher73]

One of the more racist things I actually have come across working in LE and now as a School Liaison is the mentality among many inner city blacks is that if you get an education and do well in school that you are "acting white" or are an "Uncle Tom" or "sellout".

Can this attitude be one of the main obstacles to reducing crime rates and increasing academic achievements?

I have spoken with different kids and a common theme was that they had to hide when they studied or they would be beat up by their peers and harrassed. Some would even act out in class just to fit in and throw away their chances to go to a good college to fit in with their classmates. I have no study or data on this, just personal experience and other teachers and people telling me their anecdotal stories.

 

[punisher73]

I don't think a person is or is not a racist or a bigot or prejudiced based simply upon how they act. I think how they feel matters too. One must also consider that there are private actions and public ones. A racist might shake a person's hand and wish they did not have to do it. They might attempt to apply anti-discrimination laws evenly at work, but tell racist jokes to their friends at home. They don't stop being what they are because of the public face they present. In some cases (and I am thinking of my own father here), it simply makes them a liar and a racist.

From my point of view, all racists are bigots. All bigots are prejudiced. But the reverse is not true.

Prejudice is simply what it seems - pre-judging. For example, I am prejudiced against drug dealers. I do not know their circumstances, nor do I want to. I dislike them with no other reasoning than that I dislike them. That's a prejudice. And yes, we all do it, to one extent or another. Not all prejudices are wrong.

Bigots are those who are prejudiced against others for reasons based on race, religion, culture, language, national origin, and ethnicity. Archie Bunker was a bigot; he disliked Polish people among others. All racists are bigots, but not all bigots are racists.

Racists are bigots who restrict their prejudice to a dislike based on race, as the term says.

The term 'racist' is often misused; people say it when they mean 'bigot'. There are also areas of gray; a person who is Jewish is a member of a religion (presumably), a culture, an ethnicity, and perhaps (depending on definition) a race. Dislike of Jewish people has often been considered racism; perhaps it would be more appropriate to call it bigotry, but that is perhaps splitting hairs.

I like those working definitions better. Thanks.

As a complete aside that I thought of reading your post. While working in the jail, I had this white supremicist that would always sit with the same three black guys playing cards and chess during their free time. I asked him one time how he could spout off on how he hated black people yet enjoyed spending time and hanging out with black people and not the white guys in the unit. In his brilliance (cough...ignorance...cough), he said that he was only racist when he was on the outside because it was "ok" to associate with black people when in jail because everyone was mixed in. Huh?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I like those working definitions better. Thanks.

As a complete aside that I thought of reading your post. While working in the jail, I had this white supremicist that would always sit with the same three black guys playing cards and chess during their free time. I asked him one time how he could spout off on how he hated black people yet enjoyed spending time and hanging out with black people and not the white guys in the unit. In his brilliance (cough...ignorance...cough), he said that he was only racist when he was on the outside because it was "ok" to associate with black people when in jail because everyone was mixed in. Huh?

I would presume this is the same sort of logic that enables homosexual behavior when in prison and heterosexual behavior when not incarcerated. However, I could be wrong, that's just a guess.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I would presume this is the same sort of logic that enables homosexual behavior when in prison and heterosexual behavior when not incarcerated. However, I could be wrong, that's just a guess.

Plus you live a lot longer if, the African Americans don't fear you.

 

[elder999]

One of the more racist things I actually have come across working in LE and now as a School Liaison is the mentality among many inner city blacks is that if you get an education and do well in school that you are "acting white" or are an "Uncle Tom" or "sellout".

Can this attitude be one of the main obstacles to reducing crime rates and increasing academic achievements?

I have spoken with different kids and a common theme was that they had to hide when they studied or they would be beat up by their peers and harrassed. Some would even act out in class just to fit in and throw away their chances to go to a good college to fit in with their classmates. I have no study or data on this, just personal experience and other teachers and people telling me their anecdotal stories.

I've experienced this through middle school, and a little bit through college and adulthood. If you can imagine a radio newscaster, that's pretty much what I sound like when I speak, with a little less volume, and maybe a little more culture, like your newscaster went to a New England prep school.....which I did......:lfao:

Interestingly, this is probably the form of prejudice I've encountered most in New Mexico, from all sides of the racial divide: all my life, white people have complemented me on how well-spoken I am, and how I don't talk all that jive, and black people have accused me of "trying to sound white." I just sound like myself....and my parents, maybe......

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've experienced this through middle school, and a little bit through college and adulthood. If you can imagine a radio newscaster, that's pretty much what I sound like when I speak, with a little less volume, and maybe a little more culture, like your newscaster went to a New England prep school.....which I did......:lfao:

Interestingly, this is probably the form of prejudice I've encountered most in New Mexico, from all sides of the racial divide: all my life, white people have complemented me on how well-spoken I am, and how I don't talk all that jive, and black people have accused me of "trying to sound white." I just sound like myself....and my parents, maybe......

In Spokane Washington, all the African Americans have, "white pipes" when need be. I just had this discussion a few days ago with a woman from New York. She just can't get over it. LOL
Sean

 

[elder999]

Considering that "whites" are about 80% of the population, common sense would tell you that they would also commit the most crimes. To try and make it seem otherwise is a HUGE skew of the data. Here are some examples from the FBI report from 2009 ( http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html )

Total Crime: 69% Whites vs. 28% Blacks
Murder/Manslaughter: 48.7% Whites vs. 49.3% Blacks
Robbery: 45% Whites vs. 55% Blacks
Suspicion of a crime: 45% Whites vs. 55% Blacks

So, out of 30 reportable crimes, only 2 categories have black people committing more types of crime and one of those is almost 50/50. In fact, almost 60% of ALL violent crime is done by white people. Now, you can very easily twist the data and only point out murder and robbery and make an incomplete statement that would be true in a certain way, but also misleading and false overall.

As Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, damed lies, and statistics"

And, as I tried pointing out, that that percentage of arrests takes place for less than 13% of the population says something, but to infer that it is because of being in that percentage (discounting people like my parents, grandparents and myself, who, like the majority of black people,whether wealthy, middle class or poor, do not commit crimes) is simply what we've been trying all along to talk about: racist.

 

[CanuckMA]

, and how I don't talk all that jive, .

You mean that's not you testifying?

 

[Jenna]

Like many, I have had ample experience of racist exchanges and been on the end of too many unpleasantries to catalogue. Though I was born in London, my ethnicity is enough for plenty to take umbrage against me. Whatever.. In my time trying to analyse racial antagonism as I see it, I figure that the root of racism while forming out of "honest" hatred at perhaps the level of two disuptants, branches out in three steps -and I mean here racism that is not purely ignorantly and naively inherited.

Firstly, I believe one must be predisposed to racially prejudging thought and practice - or at the very least one must not be *inwardly* repelled by such. (What we do outwardly can be facade). As has been suggested in previous posts, perhaps we are all so predisposed. I think that is likely. Though forgive me for generalising.

Secondly - assuming this inward condoning of racially prejudging behaviour, is inherent in us all, then the next step in developing racism is a single corroborating piece of evidence for the validation of one's racist predisposition. That can come in the form of a disagreement between you and a member of another ethnic group or perhaps you may perceive favouritism towards me as a member of a different ethnic group. There are myriad variants all with the same end: you have in some way been wronged by a member of another ethnic group. These are the borderline dispositions between internal and externalised racial prejudices I think.

Thirdly - now that you have simple corroboration, all that is needed to allow your racism to flourish outwardly is one or more pieces of reinforcing evidence to enable you to extrapolate what is "honest" hatred or disliking of an individual belonging to another ethnic group into card-carrying racism. This process is expedited because you are already warm to prejudice from -as before- having perhaps perceived favouritism towards me (a member of another ethnic group to you), and so you will be even more accutely aware of similar favouritism, even if it is picked up second- or third-hand, or on TV or on some internet forum where people gather to discuss their own incidents of perceived favouritism. From here, erroneous extrapolation is easy.

So what is racism? I think it is indeed the process of how good ol fashioned "honest" hatred can be misled and go awry. Aww.

Anyway, congratulations, you are now fully fledged in your racism. Continue connecting with others online. Form a sect, religion or political party. Express yourself

 

[elder999]

In Spokane Washington, all the African Americans have, "white pipes" when need be. I just had this discussion a few days ago with a woman from New York. She just can't get over it. LOL
Sean

And "speaking jive" is one of the few things I couldn't do to save my life-literally.


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:lfao: Every time!

Which brings up another question: is it racist to make jokes about perceived differences, or to laugh at them?

 

[Big Don]

Simply defined, racism is believing you can differentiate between a good person and a bad one at first sight.
You can't.

 

[granfire]

And "speaking jive" is one of the few things I couldn't do to save my life-literally.


[yt]Qa1rjCZxtxo[/yt]

:lfao: Every time!

Which brings up another question: is it racist to make jokes about perceived differences, or to laugh at them?

LOL, first time I saw that scene my English had not yet caught up with reality....It could have been Martian for all I knew!
:lol:

 

[Big Don]

And "speaking jive" is one of the few things I couldn't do to save my life-literally.


[yt]Qa1rjCZxtxo[/yt]

:lfao:

You gotta love the classics...

 

[Sukerkin]

it was "ok" to associate with black people when in jail because everyone was mixed in. Huh?

Aye, that's how it should be all the time!

Sadly, the damnable untrue cliche that only white people can be racist has far too much currency and seems to be gaining more all the time; which aggrivatingly means that this simple state of affairs is getting further away rather than closer.

 

[Twin Fist]

this is exactly true, IMO

Simply defined, racism is believing you can differentiate between a good person and a bad one at first sight.
You can't.

 

[Touch Of Death]

this is exactly true, IMO

Or if a company downsizes and you favor your race over another.
Sean