What is point of origin

[kenposikh]

Hello to all,

before anyone says what is this guy on, let me explain.

I have heard this phrase used many times and on several occassion I have disagreed with the instructor but only after the class was finished never in front of the class out of respect.

I was wondering if anyone else had heard differing explanations.

 

[michaeledward]

It is a spot just above and behind your left shoulder ........ no, I'm just kidding .... .


Point of origin is where your weapon is located, at least as I understand it. So .. in Delayed Sword, you do a right inward block, the kick ... and then the chop..... the chop 'Point of Origin' is where the block ended .... don't reload your right hand/arm to complete the chop.

Backing up one step in this technique, assuming you are in a 'Rest Stance', the 'Point of Origin' for the block, is where your right hand is hanging at your side. The right hand should move directly from the 'Point of Origin' toward the 'block position' (in front of your left shoulder). Don't loop your block in a big arching circle before you reach the 'block' position. You will be creating mucho 'false travel'.

Hope that helps. - Mike

 

[kenposikh]

Thanks that is exactly my understanding, however I have heard the term circular point of origin but in my understanding this is just plain stupid. The point is from where the weapon is the direction of travel (TRajectory) can be linear or circular.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by kenposikh
Hello to all,

before anyone says what is this guy on, let me explain.

I have heard this phrase used many times and on several occassion I have disagreed with the instructor but only after the class was finished never in front of the class out of respect.

I was wondering if anyone else had heard differing explanations.

POO is nothing more than moving your natural weapons from the position they're in to the next position. Mr. Parker vividly demonstrated Triggered Salute as an example. The hand travels from the side in an at rest position to the chin. The push is the trigger mechanism for the heel palm and it can just as easily take the hand to your opponents groin or midsection from the at rest position. POO is also the catalyst for Economy of Motion and Collapsible Deflections.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[MisterMike]

Thanks that is exactly my understanding, however I have heard the term circular point of origin but in my understanding this is just plain stupid.

Ya, agreed. A point has only 1 dimension, and circles and lines have 2, so a circular POO doen't make much sense to me either.

Perhaps, and this is just a stab here, they are referring to what type of motion preceded and followed the POO. So in Delayed Sword, you had a linear block, followed by the arcing chop.

Eh, who knows?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Ya, agreed. A point has only 1 dimension, and circles and lines have 2, so a circular POO doen't make much sense to me either.

Both linear and circular movement have a "point" from which they start, to a "point" of conclusion of "change" in human movement. therefor you cannot have linear point of origin without recognizing the circular also exists. If there is no such think as "Circular Pont Of Origin," then where does a "circular" action begin?

If you have a "J" on the basketball court, does not the ball's "Point Of Origin" begin at the shooters hand, and take a circuitious route to the basket to termination?

In motion based kenpo, movements are categorized and interpreted differently. "economy of movement" is a term created by Mr. Parker specifically for that interpretation of his Kenpo which emphasized expediate movement. This concept often contradicts proper and most efficient human anatomical action, which with proper study will be just as fast and much more efficient and effective.

Video of Mr. Parker will, in his own actions, reveal he often violated his own "Economy of Movement" and "Point Of Origin" concepts for reasons not contained in motion based kenpo movements, like most Traditional Chinese Arts. Its reasons are easily demonstrable, and are no less expeditious in execution by the experienced, but do require leaving the "conceptual" for the actual principles under close instructor scruitiny and correction, as I was taught by him.

 

[Michael Billings]

Good point Doc. There is a POO for every action. It is related to Economy of Motion, but not necessarily the same thing, contingent on the path of motion it is following, or the reason you are "violation" the Econ of Mot principle. I tie both these into Outer Rim theory also.

Remember these are Principles that came from Concepts. These Concepts were tested as Theories, but do not apply in all situations, e.g. Thundering Hammers.

-MB

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Good point Doc. There is a POO for every action. It is related to Economy of Motion, but not necessarily the same thing, contingent on the path of motion it is following, or the reason you are "violation" the Econ of Mot principle. I tie both these into Outer Rim theory also.

Remember these are Principles that came from Concepts. These Concepts were tested as Theories, but do not apply in all situations, e.g. Thundering Hammers.

-MB

Good point sir. I think we differ in that I do not use the word "principle'' so loosely. As I'm sure you already know, "principles" tend to be more absolute. Principles drawn from subjective conceptual material are rarely absolute or transferable.

I also have a sense you use the word not because you necessarily believe it, but more because we become accustomed in certain circles of expressing ourselves in a manner that the group understands.

In the pseudo-scientific atmoshpere of motion based kenpo, so called "principles" only have meaning within the conceptual vehicle itself. Not only is that true but rarely do they transfer to actual scientific application principles of human anatomy.

 

[kenposikh]

Originally posted by Doc
Both linear and circular movement have a "point" from which they start, to a "point" of conclusion of "change" in human movement. therefor you cannot have linear point of origin without recognizing the circular also exists. If there is no such think as "Circular Pont Of Origin," then where does a "circular" action begin?

Hi Doc my understanding is this

Point of origin is where the weapon moves from the way it travels from there is not important when explaining point of origin it is simply where the weapon starts.

To me it seems such a simple piece of terminology which is getting confused.

For instance take in the UK & EEC VAT laws, the point of origin of a shipment is the place from where it starts, it does not matter where and how it is getting to its final destination.

"EX (point of origin) - From the point where a shipment begins movement, e.g., 'Ex Factory, 'Ex Mine' or 'Ex Warehouse.'"

Take the following definition also

"Excess Mileage:
The term "excess mileage" as used herein shall be defined as the mileage from point of origin through point or points of diversion or reconsignment to final destination, minus the normal mileage from point of origin directly to destination."

 

[Brother John]

I think just saying "point of origin" is a bit misleading.
I think that the phrase "Moving directly from the point of origin." serves the purpose better.
A circular point of origin (don't know if I've ever heard of that, where'd you read/hear it?) sounds like it'd be "NOT moving directly from the point of origin, but indirectly."
Incidentally, I don't think that moving directly from the point of origin is so important that it shouldn't ever be broken, but be sure that the reason you 'break' this rule gives you something better in return.
Don't mean to sound cryptic.

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I definitely understand that a type of POO would be where a strike originates from in relation to its path to the target. Which I think sums up what most of the other posts are saying in a very general way. Another way the term Point Of Origin has been used is to describe a type of check. A "Point Of Origin Check" describes stopping, a punch for instance, by striking the the shoulder that that punch is attached to. In other words, striking the "center of articulation" of that appendage. So, that being said, you could conclude that the "point of origin" of a punch is the shoulder based on the definition of a "point of origin check".

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[MisterMike]

Both linear and circular movement have a "point" from which they start, to a "point" of conclusion of "change" in human movement. therefor you cannot have linear point of origin without recognizing the circular also exists. If there is no such think as "Circular Pont Of Origin," then where does a "circular" action begin

Why does there have to be a differentiation?

I was referring to the Point at which your weapon starts from. From the other post, it was being described as circular or linear at that instant in time. I did not read it as linear or circular except to describe the motion that followed.

Again, why the distinction? POO covers them all. IT seems some schools throw in more jargon than is necessary.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
I definitely understand that a type of POO would be where a strike originates from in relation to its path to the target. Which I think sums up what most of the other posts are saying in a very general way. Another way the term Point Of Origin has been used is to describe a type of check. A "Point Of Origin Check" describes stopping, a punch for instance, by striking the the shoulder that that punch is attached to. In other words, striking the "center of articulation" of that appendage. So, that being said, you could conclude that the "point of origin" of a punch is the shoulder based on the definition of a "point of origin check".

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

That's a good point - If we are all using different definitions of the term, we'll never communicate.

 

[Michael Billings]

I have heard Raymond McCallum (who taught semi-regularly at my old school), use the expression "Technique to Target". This is usually in a sparring situation, but applies elsewhere. I heard Joe Lewis at a seminar use the same phrase, as we tried to learn side kicks without the "chambering" action.

-MB

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MisterMike
That's a good point - If we are all using different definitions of the term, we'll never communicate.

Funny, that's what I always say.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Why does there have to be a differentiation?

Because HOW you execute a movement ultimately in the long run is more important than the movement itself. Ask all the guys who have shoulder and hip surgery. Only martial artists do "style conceptually interpreted" movements over and over and tear their body's up because they are perhaps expeditiously or "athestically proper" but not anatomically correct.

Pro basketball players shoot hundreds of thousands of jump shots over their lifetime, without a need for shoulder surgery, because they only do it ONE WAY. The anatomically correct most efffcient way.

So the differences and differentiation in teaching execution is monumental in efficiency and effectiveness, and is easy to prove. Only a superficial understanding suggests no need for a "difference."

Ed Parker told me a story while teaching after a similar question from me:
A guy ran a stop sign and almost hit another vehicle. They both stopped, and got in an argument. "Why didn't you stop?" the guy said. The other guy said, "I slowed down." The first guys said, "The sign says STOP not SLOW." The other guy replied, "Stop or slow, what's really the difference?"
The first guy jumped the second and threw him to the ground, and leaped onto his chest, and begin punching him in the face as hard as he could. After five or six punches he stopped and looked at the bloodied man and asked him a question. He said, "Now, do you want me to slow down, or stop."

Trust me, there is a HUGE difference in the real world, except in some interpretations of American Kenpo. The shortest route may be a straight line, but not always the best or most effective or efficient.

 

[Michael Billings]

:rofl: ROFLOL

Good analogy.

-MB

 

[Dominic Jones]

You should move from point of origin. I take point of origin to be the start point of your action.

I think linear or circular point of origin is talking about the movement after leaving the single point of origin.

After leaving the point of origin your weapon moves to the target. The weapon can follow a linear or circular travel path (I know it can be argued that all motion is circular). As kenpoists we always try to use ecomonoy of motion. That is
we chose the line/circle of travel that is the quickest (most efficient) to get the job done (most effective).

To continue the basketball analogy (As a Cornishman, who doesn`t play basketball, this could be fun)... Say you are in New York (the point of origin) and you are going to play Sans Fransisco (the target). The quickest way is to fly directly to Sans Francisco and play the game. But if the rest of your team is in Houston, the most effective way is to fly to houston first pick up your team and then fly to Sans Fransico to play the game. However if your team is alltogether in New York then to fly directly to San Franscisco is both the quickest and most effective.

It all comes down to efficiency which is, as I believe, Economony of Motion. That is the best balance between speed and effectivness.


Or as Doc summed up

Originally posted by Doc

The shortest route may be a straight line, but not always the best or most effective or efficient.

Cheers Dom:asian:

 

[Dominic Jones]

The same language/terminology.

Lots of arguments boil down to misconceptions as to what terminology means. It’s very common for the same word to have totally different meanings. For example a patient might say to a medical doctor "I have a chronic pain"- with chronic meaning it just started to really, really hurt now. The doctor listening now thinks that the patient has had that pain long term and it may or may not really hurt.

Now for a more down to earth analogy...

silt, sand, gravel refers to the grain size of soil. When a geologist says they want a well graded soil they mean they want an equal percentage of ALL grain sizes. But when a civil-engineer says they want a well graded soil- they want the soil to consist of just ONE grain size. The potential for complete confusion on site and lots of UNcivil engineers running around. As a geologist, a site I’m used to seeing.

Finally for an American story, whilst in Wyoming I met a nice girl, unfortunately miscommunication took place as I called her “a homely maid” The next second I’m covering up and backing off as she’s attacking me, for calling her “an ugly prostitute”. I quickly explained that “a homely maid” is a compliment that means a cool, beautiful girl in Cornwall.


Anyway I reckon, in order to communicate effectively you need to be talking the same discourse (language). In kenpo, although we do share a common language to an extent, the best way to communicate is to meet in person and show and feel the technique/concept etc. that you’re trying to communicate about. Talking about it, though stimulating, is not always good enough.

Cheers Dom
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenposikh
The point of origin, is from where the weapon "is" (starting point) but, I have also heard the term "circular point of origin", in my understanding this is the direction of travel (TRajectory) which can be linear or circular.

Exactly stated, Point of Origin (POO) is a simple reference to WHERE "something" STARTS ....... if you are talking about 'your' action or any actions of your opponents...... that's it! the <<<<POINT>>>> of Origin.... it pretty much says is all.

Any movements after the designated "starting point" (POO), should be referred to as the LINE of action or the PATH of action.....

We should strive to make this easier not more difficult.

:asian: