One question I often ask my students (and myself) is what, out of all the stuff we train in WC, can we really count on in a self-defense situation. What could you really depend on if suddenly attacked by someone bigger stronger and "badder" than you. How much of what you train can you access and apply under that kind of stress?
What can you really count on under stress?
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Takai
Senior Master
I would agree. In a stressful situation you always fall back on the core of your training. Whatever you have stored in your muscle memory is what you end up responding with.
mook jong man
Senior Master
It's going to be rather low level stuff , the things that you have trained the most , usually the things that are basic that you started learning early on.
For me it would be-
Pak Sau and punch , followed by chain punch , latch and elbow strike , hook kick , or stamp kick
Chain punching followed by hook kick
Chain punching followed by elbow strike.
Low heel kick followed by chain punching.
Dai Sau and punch followed by latch and hook kick , followed by knee or elbow strike .
They are all basically the same except for the type of finishing technique involved and at what point the latch occurs.
For me it would be-
Pak Sau and punch , followed by chain punch , latch and elbow strike , hook kick , or stamp kick
Chain punching followed by hook kick
Chain punching followed by elbow strike.
Low heel kick followed by chain punching.
Dai Sau and punch followed by latch and hook kick , followed by knee or elbow strike .
They are all basically the same except for the type of finishing technique involved and at what point the latch occurs.
Danny T
Senior Master
That would be very similar to what I'm visualizing my friend.
I'm more interested in seeing how much of Wing Chun's core concepts are retained. You shouldn't need a lot of techniques to use your art effectively. I'm still a beginner and far from experienced in the art, but from what I have learned so far, I am a firm believer in that saying "Loi Lau; Hoi Sung; Lat Sao Jik Chung." I think we would all agree that this is the underlying concept behind the system, and is what makes it effective, and yet the people who can apply this concept seem to be very few. I'm speculating here, but I think this is just due to human nature; it's natural to back up when you're in danger, and it's also natural to take your hand back when your opponent does, as one would do in boxing; rather than to rush in and attack upon loss of contact. This to me seems the most difficult, yet important concept to train and make second nature.
Maybe we could try doing dan-chi with a boxer?
Maybe we could try doing dan-chi with a boxer?
Danny T
Senior Master
Maybe we could try doing dan-chi with a boxer?
Does that mean you don't? I have our boxers and thai boxers work with our wing chunners often.
mook jong man
Senior Master
I'm more interested in seeing how much of Wing Chun's core concepts are retained. You shouldn't need a lot of techniques to use your art effectively. I'm still a beginner and far from experienced in the art, but from what I have learned so far, I am a firm believer in that saying "Loi Lau; Hoi Sung; Lat Sao Jik Chung." I think we would all agree that this is the underlying concept behind the system, and is what makes it effective, and yet the people who can apply this concept seem to be very few. I'm speculating here, but I think this is just due to human nature; it's natural to back up when you're in danger, and it's also natural to take your hand back when your opponent does, as one would do in boxing; rather than to rush in and attack upon loss of contact. This to me seems the most difficult, yet important concept to train and make second nature.
Maybe we could try doing dan-chi with a boxer?
You just need the right type of training in Chi Sau.
One of the best exercises for this is when doing Chi Sau with your partner have him randomly break away and throw a jab or other type of random punch , you rush forward and defend/attack.
The next stage is to try and feel for the loss of contact as he tries to break away and you attempt to latch his hands back in as you rush forward and neutralise.
Another variation is for when he does manage to break away and get some space between you and him , you can latch his hands and do a medium heel kick to the groin or just use the kick on its own to bridge the gap.
Apart from whats mentioned above, does anyone else do any "stress" training. Well, as much as you can do stress training I mean as it's in a safe environment.
It reminds me of Alan Gibsons videos (for the UK guys among you) when he does multiple attacker in outside areas near his training rooms.
Back in the day as part of our "grey sash" grading, which was considered our step to senior practitioner we had to do bulldog.
In mine there 8-10 of us grading...8 guys at one end of the room and you at the other, you have to get past them and touch the wall behind them. No one ever touched the wall.
It showed your spirit in trying, we all took it very seriously and we knew each other very well as we trained hard together most days.....I had light gloves on and took lots of shots. We were told to keep it chun as long as we could. Usually lasted about 5 seconds until we were totally overwhelmed.
There were always black eyes and fat lips after.
It may not be your idea of Wing Chun but it was a once in a lifetime thing as it was grey sash grading only, we were also not allowed to tell any lower grades so they could get ready for it.
I actually enjoyed it, and it was bloody stressful at the time, and yep my chun lasted a few seconds and I was on the deck.
I reckon a couple of big buggers coming at you with gloves and headguards on will always get your stress level up, especially if you sifu is nearby watching your response!
It reminds me of Alan Gibsons videos (for the UK guys among you) when he does multiple attacker in outside areas near his training rooms.
Back in the day as part of our "grey sash" grading, which was considered our step to senior practitioner we had to do bulldog.
In mine there 8-10 of us grading...8 guys at one end of the room and you at the other, you have to get past them and touch the wall behind them. No one ever touched the wall.
It showed your spirit in trying, we all took it very seriously and we knew each other very well as we trained hard together most days.....I had light gloves on and took lots of shots. We were told to keep it chun as long as we could. Usually lasted about 5 seconds until we were totally overwhelmed.
There were always black eyes and fat lips after.
It may not be your idea of Wing Chun but it was a once in a lifetime thing as it was grey sash grading only, we were also not allowed to tell any lower grades so they could get ready for it.
I actually enjoyed it, and it was bloody stressful at the time, and yep my chun lasted a few seconds and I was on the deck.
I reckon a couple of big buggers coming at you with gloves and headguards on will always get your stress level up, especially if you sifu is nearby watching your response!
MikeBielat
Orange Belt
That is actually really cool that you did that. Maybe I'm old school but I feel like the best way to train and do self defense is 1.) learn the moves 2.) ace the mechanics then 3.) apply them at various speeds until you go full-force.
So much training is little to no contact that once someone gets hit it would be a world of confusion. You have to learn how to take a punch just the same as you need to know how to give one.
If you get hit then you should have not blocked with your face. Great motivation to get better.
I remember when I was 13 and I was the test dummy for teens moving into the adult classes. First sparring class I got railed in the nose. Still can't breathe right out of one nostril but I am grateful for that punch since it taught me what its like to be hit and that is the school of hard knocks.
So much training is little to no contact that once someone gets hit it would be a world of confusion. You have to learn how to take a punch just the same as you need to know how to give one.
If you get hit then you should have not blocked with your face. Great motivation to get better.
I remember when I was 13 and I was the test dummy for teens moving into the adult classes. First sparring class I got railed in the nose. Still can't breathe right out of one nostril but I am grateful for that punch since it taught me what its like to be hit and that is the school of hard knocks.
Actually under stress I'm really good at seeing ways out and retreating PDQ. Never underestimate the power of running away. I can fight if I have to but I can also keep my head and get the hell out of there without taking wrong turns etc.
I've just started JKD and am finding some of it a challenge from my karate/TSD, enjoyable but some of it is quite different.
I've just started JKD and am finding some of it a challenge from my karate/TSD, enjoyable but some of it is quite different.
mook jong man
Senior Master
I have done various types of Adrenal Stress type drills over the years similar to the one you have described Bully , but they aren't ones that really stick in my memory.
The ones I remember the most are the times when our senior Instructor would Chi Sau spar a whole class of us Junior Instructors one after the other.
As you were training and waiting for your turn you would be hearing the other guy getting the absolute **** kicked out of him .
When he called your name you knew you were about to cop a beating , but there was no malice in it , he was just trying to push people out of their comfort zone and bring out the best in them.
You would be taken to the point of exhaustion and learn to endure pain , the timid would learn to become brave , the aggressive learned to keep their emotions in check.
This fifty something man with a bit of a gut had forearms like iron bars and he was tough real tough , he would spar a class of 30 Si hings one after the other with no break.
We'd be standing there drenched in sweat and sometimes he'd be sparring you with one arm , you learned to take hits to the head without flinching , because If you turned your head at all away from the strike you would get a palm strike in the lug hole from the other side.
The worst ones were the side palm strikes to the rib cage , you would end up with actual red hand prints on your rib cage for a few days , those bastards hurt more than getting hit in the face.
At least you would sometimes see the ones coming for your face , you didn't manage to stop many of them , but at least you could see where they were coming from.
The low side palms would sneak under your arm if he saw that your ribs were exposed , and they would land in exactly the same spot time and time again , even as I'm writing this I can still feel the sting of those palm strikes.
One time I did manage to get through his guard though , I was taking a bit of a beating and several students were watching , so from somewhere I found a bit more speed and cracked him right in the cheek bone.
I thought I was about to die as I awaited the flurry from this human threshing machine , but he just smiled and said in his Kiwi accent " Good Hut".
I think those sessions tended to induce more fear and apprehension in me than the other types , but in a different way because I knew exactly what was ahead of me.
mook jong man
Senior Master
For those unfamiliar with the nuances of the Kiwi accent , it is a bit like the Australian accent but " i " sounds get replaced with a more " u " sound .
So kick sounds more like kuck and hit sounds more like hut.
Another Kiwi Instructor I had would always say "Hut , hut, hut and when he's on the ground kuck , kuck , kuck .
So kick sounds more like kuck and hit sounds more like hut.
Another Kiwi Instructor I had would always say "Hut , hut, hut and when he's on the ground kuck , kuck , kuck .
Other than the fact my old sifu had a Turkish accent rather than a kiwi accent, you were absolutely describing a typical session with him. I finally came to the realization that I was going to get blasted and there wasn't much I was going to be able to do about it.
Believe it or not, that's when I actually started to relax and do better.
One of the last sessions I had like that with him was 10 years ago.
The chi sau session went into some pretty intensive chi gerk....I was actually doing pretty fair until I caught a knee to the solar plexus
We continued on for several more minutes, me trying to get my breath after taking that shot....that's stress.
Then I finally got my breath back and he started back into chi gerk and....BLAM.... another shot with the knee.
And so it went for several agonizing minutes.........
I actually made contact with his nose during this session. I felt like I needed to have my fist bronzed.
Danny T
Senior Master
The thing about stress drills is doing it once or twice is not enough. To be truly effective it must be done often. Otherwise you are only creating a false sense of capability and skill. Also, the mental aspect isn't the same for it is a drill. It may be rough to perform and the others may be going hard but mentally you know you are not going to be seriously injured. Black eyes, bloody noses and/or lips, being winded or exhausted in a training event or a grading is not a possible life threatening event. It is a start but most stop at that.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Yeah I know what your saying , after a while you get resigned to the fact you are going to get smashed anyway , so you might as well try and relax don't flinch and give yourself half a chance of stopping some of those strikes.
Actually I was lucky I didn't have long hair , one of his favourite things was to push his Tan Sau along the side of some guys neck and take them down to floor by grabbing the back of their hair , saw many big guys hit the deck that way.
I sparred him again quite a few years later after that when I was a bit more senior , and managed to stop most of those palm strikes to the ribs.
Probably because my skill had increased and maybe I just wasn't afraid of him as I used to be.
I always remember him telling us when we started teaching "That your students should always be a little bit scared of you".
Hi Guys,
thanks for sharing these experiences with us all
I'm confused though by the original post. I can see that it would be a benifit to ask this of the students but I kind of always thought that Wing Chun was about not stressing in combat and letting it flow out of you without your conscious mind putting the brakes on.
Have I picked this up wrong? Is there a little bit of your mind that tactically tries to calculate "How am I going to proceed with the demolishion of my enemy here?"
I don't disagree with anything that's been said I would just like to know.
For my own part, at least the feedback from the punchbag tells me, I have faith that I can at the very least imbalance someone with a driven elbow. Until the field test results come back it will remain at just faith and it assumes that I can hit a moving target "punchbags don't hit back"
P
thanks for sharing these experiences with us all
I'm confused though by the original post. I can see that it would be a benifit to ask this of the students but I kind of always thought that Wing Chun was about not stressing in combat and letting it flow out of you without your conscious mind putting the brakes on.
Have I picked this up wrong? Is there a little bit of your mind that tactically tries to calculate "How am I going to proceed with the demolishion of my enemy here?"
I don't disagree with anything that's been said I would just like to know.
For my own part, at least the feedback from the punchbag tells me, I have faith that I can at the very least imbalance someone with a driven elbow. Until the field test results come back it will remain at just faith and it assumes that I can hit a moving target
"punchbags don't hit back"P
mook jong man
Senior Master
I remember someone asked Tsui Seung Tin once what his mindset was prior to engaging , he said words to the effect of "All he is thinking about is how fast he is going to knock the person out".
One of my Instructors used to say "Go straight through them like a lazer beam".
In other words you are not thinking of specific techniques , you are just going to focus on the centerline and go straight though that person in front of you with any technique , as hard and as fast as you can.
It's like when you drive to the supermarket in your car, you don't consciously think about every time you depress the accelerator , hit the break , or turn the steering wheel , you just do it.
The main goal is to get to the supermarket , not focus on the steps taken to get there.
You want to be goal orientated not task orientated.
The task orientated person will think I must do a particular kick to bridge the gap and then a particular technique once I am in punching range .
The goal orientated person will just think , " I am going to put this individual down who is standing in front of me , and I will hit him with everything but the kitchen sink".
As the great Wong Shun Leung used to say "If you have to think about it , its too late".
One of my Instructors used to say "Go straight through them like a lazer beam".
In other words you are not thinking of specific techniques , you are just going to focus on the centerline and go straight though that person in front of you with any technique , as hard and as fast as you can.
It's like when you drive to the supermarket in your car, you don't consciously think about every time you depress the accelerator , hit the break , or turn the steering wheel , you just do it.
The main goal is to get to the supermarket , not focus on the steps taken to get there.
You want to be goal orientated not task orientated.
The task orientated person will think I must do a particular kick to bridge the gap and then a particular technique once I am in punching range .
The goal orientated person will just think , " I am going to put this individual down who is standing in front of me , and I will hit him with everything but the kitchen sink".
As the great Wong Shun Leung used to say "If you have to think about it , its too late".
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