What does Efficiency mean to you?

[geezer]

Would you say that wing chun is more or less useful than PTK as a knife defense method?

Which knives? WC does pretty well with the BCD. The problem is that training is held back so long, it's hard to build real competence. For that reason alone, I favor Eskrima. And within FMA, PTK is especially blade oriented. By contrast, the WC most of us train in primarily hand to hand, not hand to blade.

 

[geezer]

This should prove to be an interesting topic........perhaps this could be its own thread? (i.e. WC / PTK, etc). ?

Great idea. I gotta get back to work, so you start it, WCK.

 

[Danny T]

Another similarity between WC and Pekiti: politics.

That is certainly true depending upon the circle you are in.

 

[geezer]

That is certainly true depending upon the circle you are in.

Yeah. One of the guys I train under was involved with Bill McGrath for a while, many years ago. He is now a Senior Instructor in Torres DTE. He highly respects the skill of GM Gaje, and others, but has no stomach for the politics. Just the way I feel about WC/VT.

 

[Danny T]

Would you say that wing chun is more or less useful than PTK as a knife defense method?

From my experience they can be much the same.
But that would be based upon the intent of the training.

 

[guy b.]

Which knives? WC does pretty well with the BCD. The problem is that training is held back so long, it's hard to build real competence. For that reason alone, I favor Eskrima. And within FMA, PTK is especially blade oriented. By contrast, the WC most of us train in primarily hand to hand, not hand to blade.

I would say that BJD doesn't necessarily take a long time to reach. WSL VT moves things forward quite fast in general. It is more a process of getting everything quite fast then spending a lifetime polishing errors than spending a lifetime chasing the elusive secret form. The idea is that if you take to long to get material you develop incorrectly.

In terms of effectiveness I am talking empty hands vs weapon. Wing chun has some weapon ideas when armed, but not sure t has much when unarmed. BJD footwork and tactics might help I guess, but then you aren't holding knives so idea of targeting arms not nearly as effective.

 

[geezer]

Guy, I agree with what you say. By contrast, in the "WT" system, the long pole, and especially the BCD are held back for a very long time, typically until a student is a fully recognized Sifu nearing "practitioner" (master) level within the system, and then often taught at a very high price. IMO when learned "secretly" by so few so late, the techniques are diminished in value. Even after all these years I have never learned the entire "WT" BCD form. And if I had, of what use would it be when I've already pretty much developed my fighting instincts based on fundamentals learned ages ago. TBH my functional weapons skills owe more to my Escrima training than to my limited BCD work.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ I don't think you've missed out on much Steve. FMA blade work is much better than most people's BJD that I've seen.

 

[LFJ]

You stated: “…but honestly, VT was not designed for empty hand vs knife” my response was: “But is an excellent edged weapon defensive art though not originally designed as such.”

Okay, maybe you're not expressing what you think you are.

"Is it not" means you think it is, but then you later say the opposite;

"wc when trained as such is an excellent edged weapon art even though it wasn't originally designed with that intent."

I am a long time Pekiti-Tirsia Kali practitioner as well as WC.

You seem to be describing knife vs knife.

VT knife fighting is indeed excellent, but I thought we were talking empty hand vs knife which is entirely different.

I wouldn't use VT for that because even if you "intercept the attack, while counter-attacking the core", a drugged out maniac could just keep right on spazzing out with their knife all over you if you don't knock them out cold. They can take hits and keep coming.

If you don't get control of the knife hand (which could be switched instantly and imperceptibly) and knock them out quickly you'll be standup wrestling for control and trying to counter-attack while getting cut to shreds. Not a good deal.

 

[Danny T]

Okay, maybe you're not expressing what you think you are.

"Is it not" means you think it is, but then you later say the opposite;

"wc when trained as such is an excellent edged weapon art even though it wasn't originally designed with that intent."

Let's see now.
It was originally designed with the intent of empty hand vs empty hand. Weaponry was a concern and incorporated. It evolved.
The principles, concepts, movements, structures, force vectors all work very well in an empty hand vs knife situation if train for that situation. So even though when originally designed for one aspect of fighting (empty hand vs empty hand) if trained with an emphasis and against a knife it is an excellent edged weapon art.
For example, the drug Viagra... was originally formulated and developed by Pfizer for Pulmonary Arterial Hypertension. The intent for Viagra was for the heart. During clinical trials it was found to have a huge influence in males with erectile dysfunction. Though developed and intended for one thing it is excellent for something else.

You seem to be describing knife vs knife.

VT knife fighting is indeed excellent, but I thought we were talking empty hand vs knife which is entirely different.

I am discussing empty hand vs knife.

Pekiti's highest level is empty hand vs multiple opponents with multiple weapons and its basic knife level begins with empty hand vs knife then goes through knife vs knife up to double knife vs double knife and finally returns to empty hand vs multiple opponents with multiple knives.
I am talking about empty hand vs knife.

 

[KPM]

Okay, maybe you're not expressing what you think you are.

"Is it not" means you think it is, but then you later say the opposite;

"wc when trained as such is an excellent edged weapon art even though it wasn't originally designed with that intent."


.

Danny, I for one had no problem understanding exactly what you were saying. I don't think you contradicted yourself at all.

 

[LFJ]

The principles, concepts, movements, structures, force vectors all work very well in an empty hand vs knife situation if train for that situation.

Hmm, VT empty hand and knife strategies are for the most part opposites.

VT knife strategy without knives against knives is pretty useless.
VT empty hand strategy against knives is pretty bold / probably suicidal.

Can't say your Viagra explanation has sold me on the idea of adapting something to fill a purpose that is already filled by more tried and tested methods.

Pekiti's highest level is empty hand vs multiple opponents with multiple weapons...
...empty hand vs multiple opponents with multiple knives.

Seriously? Sounds like a movie. Lots of awesome choreography involved, I'm sure?

 

[Danny T]

Hmm, VT empty hand and knife strategies are for the most part opposites.

VT knife strategy without knives against knives is pretty useless.
VT empty hand strategy against knives is pretty bold / probably suicidal.

Can't say your Viagra explanation has sold me on the idea of adapting something to fill a purpose that is already filled by more tried and tested methods.



Seriously? Sounds like a movie. Lots of awesome choreography involved, I'm sure?

Strategy is one thing tactics is what get the job done.

Very little adapting is required. The tactics are already there; in a well trained wc person.

Empty hand against knives is about survival and not getting dead. No it isn't a movie or choreography. But is about good training and practicing under hard pressure. Like everything else the demonstrations for learning and passing on a basic understanding is choreographed. The drills are choreographed. The pressure testing is random and aggressive...Yes we get caught, cut, sliced & diced. But it is about how to survive long enough to get away. Already stated ESCAPE Immediately.
I never stated you will walk away uninjured. Just as in an empty hand confrontation wc skills and knowledge doesn't mean you will not get hit or not get injured not matter how good it is.

Not selling anything. I simply stated although wc wasn't originally designed for one aspect of fighting it's methodology happens to be excellent for another. It works for me and many others as well. If not for you...Ok it's all good on my end.

 

[LFJ]

Interesting. Most Wing Chun people can't fight one guy empty hand vs empty hand too well, so you understand my suspicion when you start talking about empty hand vs multiple attackers with multiple weapons including knives.

You asked me what if I can't escape against one knife attacker. Now you're talking about escaping immediately from multiple knife attackers while unarmed? Hmm.

 

[Danny T]

Interesting. Most Wing Chun people can't fight one guy empty hand vs empty hand too well, so you understand my suspicion when you start talking about empty hand vs multiple attackers with multiple weapons including knives.

Shortly trained, low level trained, and poorly trained wc people can't fight.
And they would do poorly against a knife attack.
Agreed.

You asked me what if I can't escape against one knife attacker. Now you're talking about escaping immediately from multiple knife attackers while unarmed? Hmm.

LOL.
Where did I ask that.
And I never stated anything about escaping immediately from multiple attackers of any kind unharmed. I never stated anything about getting out of any fight situation 'unharmed'. I never alluded to being unharmed.

I did write what following.

...it is about how to survive long enough to get away. Already stated ESCAPE Immediately.
I never stated you will walk away uninjured. Just as in an empty hand confrontation wc skills and knowledge doesn't mean you will not get hit or not get injured not matter how good it is.

 

[Cephalopod]

Disregarding all the he said / he said nonsense...

It seems there was an interesting point of debate:
When all other options have been exhausted and you are forced to combat, unarmed, an assailant with a knife...should you:
a) attempt to control the weapon and the arm that wields it or
b) attempt to evade/deflect the weapon to clear an attack path to the assailant's core

The most sage advice I have ever received regarding knife fighting: Imagine yourself covered with blood. Now imagine that it's your blood. Now get comfortable with that idea and do what needs to be done.

Option a) sounds really nice and if you feel that you have a HUGE advantage of skill and ability over your assailant you might pull it off. But if a) goes south, if the attacker starts wildly and desperately slashing (something that doesn't often get trained against in many anti-knife classes) then you'd better switch to option b) pretty damn quick.
You're going to get cut regardless but your best chance of survival is to blast up the center and incapacitate the man not the arm. Then you can tend to your wounds.

Holy carp, I really hope I don't end up in this situation.

 

[Cephalopod]

I would argue that option b) is also the most efficient approach to the problem.
[Tips hat to OP]

 

[KPM]

I would argue that option b) is also the most efficient approach to the problem.
[Tips hat to OP]

Unless you end up dead!

 

[LFJ]

You asked me what if I can't escape against one knife attacker. Now you're talking about escaping immediately from multiple knife attackers while unarmed? Hmm.

LOL.
Where did I ask that.
And I never stated anything about escaping immediately from multiple attackers of any kind unharmed. I never stated anything about getting out of any fight situation 'unharmed'. I never alluded to being unharmed.

I didn't say "unharmed" either. Unarmed means not carrying any weapons.

To my response about not using VT empty hand vs one knife attacker, you asked;

Post #17 "Even if you are unable to get away?"

Then you later started talking about;

Post #90 "empty hand vs multiple opponents with multiple knives."

I said this sounds like a movie. Then you said;

Post #93 "it is about how to survive long enough to get away. Already stated ESCAPE Immediately."

So first, you ask me about what if I'm unable to get away from one knife attacker.

Now you say you're going to survive long enough to get away while unarmed against multiple opponents with multiple knives!

Hmmmmm...

 

[Danny T]

I didn't say "unharmed" either. Unarmed means not carrying any weapons.

To my response about not using VT empty hand vs one knife attacker, you asked;

Post #17 "Even if you are unable to get away?"

Then you later started talking about;

Post #90 "empty hand vs multiple opponents with multiple knives."

I said this sounds like a movie. Then you said;

Post #93 "it is about how to survive long enough to get away. Already stated ESCAPE Immediately."

So first, you ask me about what if I'm unable to get away from one knife attacker.

Now you say you're going to survive long enough to get away while unarmed against multiple opponents with multiple knives!

Hmmmmm...

You are correct. I miss read and I apologize.

Yes we train unarmed vs multiple opponents with multiple knives.
And yes it is a total waste of time and energy. We will beginning today not fighting back and allow ourselves to die for no one has ever survived an edged weapon attack much less an attack with multiple opponents.

I don't want to be in another knife attack but I do train for that possibility and I do so within the wc training i
I certainly don't want to ever be in a multiple opponent with multiple weapons attack but I do train for that possibility.
I'm will run and get away first 'if' that is the best possibility.
I will fight to be able to get away.
I will fight to survive to be able to get away.
I will fight to survive.
I will fight until I can no longer fight.

Others I assume are willing to only die.