What are you envisioning for a self defense scenairo?

[Cruentus]

Should this take over a TMA's training? No. Should it be a sub component. Personally (and I'm opinionated about this) if your school advertises teaching self defense and your not touching on this in class on a semi regular basis (a few times a year or so), then I think you're doing you students a disjustice. A little goes a long way with this and in my opinion is more important than teaching a prearranged self defense.

Well said!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

But if your supposed to be training in an actual martial art, such as Modern Arnis, or Kenpo, and yet scenario training overtakes your entire curriculim, or even a large amount of your curriculum, then I think you have a problem. <snip>However, if you are learning a martial art to become a better fighter/martial artist, then the majority of your training should be spent learning your art. Why? because your trying to take your skill level to higher levels, and you have a few years to a lifetime to do it. Doing scenarios is fine under these circumstances, but getting carried away will only take away from your ability to learn your art.

Understood. I can agree with that.

But by beginning at the emotional and verbal attack points you leave students the option to "talk their way" out of the scenario. Some times it works. Some times it doesn't.

True.

A lot of the young college age males around here...and a surprising number of adults older than that...won't attempt to de-escalate out of a distorted sense of testosterone infused pride. They then try and rationalize their actions to the police with a "he started it" or a "hey, I was just defending myself" line. I was trying to make that distinction. I think its important to talk to our students about that...particularly the young males...so they can learn and then attempt to defuse the situation and don't get into that silly posturing themselves.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Zoran]

What are you envisioning for a self defense scenairo?

Surviving. :asian:

 

[Tony]

hi all

I found all your posts interesting. I have begun to think about lots different scenarios I could get myself in. For instance today i got on the train to go shopping and I became aware of some guys in their 20s-30s all drinking and immediately my mind started to draw up counter attacks and other techniques just incase somethin were to happen! And this has become common for me, or maybe I'm just overly paronoid!

Today I was in a large bookshop and browsing the Martial Arts section, and all of a sudden 2 guys very politely asked me if they could get to the books! But it made me think, what if they hadn't have been so polite? well there are some interesting objects I could have used as weapons, books, especially the hardback books!

While walking anywhere I try to envisage all kinds of ways I could be attacked and how to deal with the potential threat!
I have also begun trying to train my periphial vision! At work I will be reading a magazine and without looking up I will be observing how many people walk past and if they are a man or woman and where they are going! Its funny how sometimes we can see without seeing! I remember one incident even before I was trainging in any Martial art when I was 17 and I could feel a presence behind me but being so scared I didn't know what to do! It was probably Adrenaline which gives a higher sense of alertness and protects you from feelin any pain! Because I was kicked in the groin really hard but I could not feel anything!!

 

[Gotkenpo?]

There are an infinite number of scenerios. Scenerios training is kind of like playing the odds if you will because there are so many options. It is very benificial and very REAL if done right.

The majority of scenerios should start with some sort of verbal confrontation, and you practicing your de-escalation skills, observing body language, pre-emptive striking, etc. From there if your opponent attacks, you must practice "flipping the switch" if you will. You must tap into your killer instinct and destroy your opponent. You must not get caught up in sport sparring, you must FIGHT like your life will be over if you lose, cause on the street, that has happened to many people.

Some scenerios may be:

1.) You are approached my a guy who asks you the time, for directions, etc. while you are talking, you are tackled from behind, and they try to stomp your face. You must survive, thats it.

2.) 4 on 1 full contact. You have no padding unless you would like head gear. Your opponents are padded so you can unleash into them. You must survive, thats it.

3.) you are held in a rear bear hug, while 2 guys come from the front, one, both or all three guys have knives. you must survive.

4.) held at knife point, gun point, attacked with bludgeon weapons, and unarmed attackers. you must survive.

training "live" scenerios is not about winning or losing, because in real life, fighting is not about winning or losing, it is about survival. I have found that the traditional arts train to handle different attacks and have a defensive mindset. You must train to handle vicious and violent assaults and have an offensive mindset at all times, and be able to "throw the switch" easily, and without thought.

My 2 cents

Man, i gotta get a new username...

 

[Gotkenpo?]

Another good scenerio is the "in the club" scenerio. you get 20 people together in your school, home, whatever. Get them to have a few shots of straight vodka each, and have loud music with a strobe light on. have 2 guys attack a certain person, while the other people in "the club" are talking to one another with mock drinks (water) in their hand.

 

[Black Bear]

Haha, another Richard Dimitri thing eh. Do you train under one of his "disciples"?

 

[Black Bear]

I see you're with CFA, tell me about the Franco method.

 

[KenpoTex]

Good discussion y'all,
In my opionion reality/scenario based training is extremely important (not that the other aspects of a particular system should be overlooked) because as we have discussed on this thread and on others, a street-fight or self-defense situation is not going to start with a bow and a handshake. In the studio where I study environmental awareness is stressed above all else because if you are aware of what's taking place around you, you are automatically less likely to be selected as a target.
An example of a drill that we have practiced would be having a student pretend he/she is at an ATM machine and have another student come up and accost them (you feel kind of silly but I think it's valuable training). we also do a lot of verbal de-escalation stuff, especially with the kids classes because, as was stated earlier, most incidents do not begin with a punch or a knife thrust, they begin with some sort of dialogue ("hey buddy do you have a light?" etc.) to get you to lower your guard and to bring your attacker within range. If you can end the encounter at that point you may not have to progress to a physical encounter.
Anyway, that was my two cents.

 

[Tgace]

Originally posted by PAUL
LEO or Military are also not training to be better fighters or martial artists. They are trying to use whatever they have RIGHT NOW to do their job. So, they learn a different set of simple stupid principles then a civilian would, yet it is basically the same. Simple stupid concepts, techniques, then scenario training...done in a few weeks, moving on.

So, am I making sense here? LEO, Military, and civilian self defense do scenarios because they are not trying to improve their abilities as fighters, or martial artists. They are learning in a very short amount of time how to utilize what they have RIGHT NOW to defend themselves. So, they learn a few simple stupid concepts, then they drill scenarios so that these concepts can get integrated in their reactionary/response memories.

However, if you are learning a martial art to become a better fighter/martial artist, then the majority of your training should be spent learning your art. Why? because your trying to take your skill level to higher levels, and you have a few years to a lifetime to do it. Doing scenarios is fine under these circumstances, but getting carried away will only take away from your ability to learn your art.

I think your working on an assumption that being a better technically trained martial artist will, as a rule, make you a better fighter. Once again its a matter of "why are you studying".You can be an effective "fighter" with a relative few well trained techniques, but you wont be an "artist". The KISS principle in combatives has a lot to say for it. There have been many studies (had a refrence to one but cant find it now) showing that the fewer response options you have trained, the faster you will respond with the ones you have (a la Innosanto "keep what is usefull..."). In military and LEO circles, unarmed fighting is more an issue of "diminishing returns" in training. The time and effort to attain "martial artist" level skills and a "relatively" smaller advantage, could better be spent in training other skills that could give you a better advantage. If we didnt desire to be "better fighters" we would just stick with what was taught in the academy and guys like Wagner and Blauer wouldnt interest us...


On senario training....while it may not make you a better "fighter", there is no better way to train you to become a better "survivor" in the bigger picture of conflict resolution. The improtant thing to focus on is the training/reinforcement of tactical principles rather than any type of particular environment/location/social situation. For example,in my dept. we may train a scenario that illustrates the point that if you use cover and call a suspect out of a room to you, you live. If you run in and fight it out, you die. That concept is more important than the "story" behind the scenario....it dosent matter if the bad guy is a zombie and you are on Mars. The problem with many "civilian" attempts at scenario training is that they loose sight of what is being trained and get lost in the "other" issues.

 

[Louxcypher]

There is lots of good input in this string. Some I have thought of some not. I learn from reading these posts.

Its terrible that we have to live in a world where we do have to be on guard all the time. I think suprise is the big factor. Suprise works two ways. An agressor comes to you and wants this or that, getting handsy....suprise!

Or Mr. "I have to have your child cause I need to fullfill some fantasies" approaches you and him with a weapon and ....suprise!

My son and wife are constantly drilled by me in "what if's"

What if your walking to your car and your being followed? What if a van is parked by your car in the parking garage, and the lot is almost empty? What if your on your way home from school and a nice lady asks for help to find her lost dog?

My wife is 110 lbs and I am concerned sometimes for she doesnt alway stop, look and listen enough for my satisfaction. But, on the other hand my son is more aware than me sometimes! He has a black belt at 11 in TKD. Nice start to MA. Now he wants to be taught Kenpo, which I think is a good move. I told him To take whatever art you want and the more the merrier. Bottom line...survival!

Thanks

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Tgace
I think your working on an assumption that being a better technically trained martial artist will, as a rule, make you a better fighter. Once again its a matter of "why are you studying"

I am not actually working on the assumption that technical profeciency = better fighter. I am basically saying the same thing you are in a different way. It depends on what your needs are. Cops and military need more scanario training specific to their jobs. The amount a civilian needs and what kind of scenario training will depend on the person. It does depend on "why you are studying," I agree.

The thing that I see too often is people not training according to their needs. A woman who wants learn basic self defense as quickly as possible who signs up for kickboxing, a person who wants to be better fighter who trains all tactics and no technique, a person who wants to be a better fighter who trains all technique an no tactics; this can go in any number of ways. I see it too often.

PAUL

 

[loki09789]

"The thing that I see too often is people not training according to their needs. A woman who wants learn basic self defense as quickly as possible who signs up for kickboxing,"

What type of training does this woman need to accomplish her self defense goal then?

The up side to a real contact kickboxing program could have benefits would be the woman getting real hitting and getting hit experience so that she would not become a wilting flower in a self defense 'fight'. She would also improve her conditioning for a faster, more successful hitting power, running speed and endurance. The fighting skills of a boxer/kickboxer could come in handy though, I would have to agree, not cover all the needs of her training.

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by loki09789
"The thing that I see too often is people not training according to their needs. A woman who wants learn basic self defense as quickly as possible who signs up for kickboxing,"

What type of training does this woman need to accomplish her self defense goal then?

Paul Martin

I'm suprised you asked, because the answer would be right up your alley. I think that for basic self defense as quickly as possible, more tactical training would be in order. She should learn some simple stupid techniques that take very little training to learn, along with the right tactics so she can have the proper mindset for defense.

Kickboxing teaches a lot of good things for the long run, but does little to teach them self defense for the short run.

PAUL

 

[Tgace]

Originally posted by PAUL
The thing that I see too often is people not training according to their needs. A woman who wants learn basic self defense as quickly as possible who signs up for kickboxing, a person who wants to be better fighter who trains all tactics and no technique, a person who wants to be a better fighter who trains all technique an no tactics; this can go in any number of ways. I see it too often.

PAUL

I have to agree with you there. On the flip side though...how many of those instances involve instructors making cliams to their students that they just cant follow through on??

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Tgace
I have to agree with you there. On the flip side though...how many of those instances involve instructors making cliams to their students that they just cant follow through on??

Oh yea...its most often the instructors fault leading them in the wrong direction rather then the students.

Funny story: The largest class I ever had was about 35 people. THis is strange for me because I prefer smaller groups. This all happened when I was teaching at a fitness center. I was in a conference room with my 5 arnis students, and I had about 30 women waiting in the aerobics room for their instructor to arrive. Their instructor doing "cardio-kickboxing" and framing it as a self-defense course, as well as an aerobics class. He was a clown, and much of what they were doing would not be remotely helpful for self defense. Anyways, that day the instructor never showed up because he was fired a few days prior (for sexual harassment, as it turned out) and management failed to inform anyone of a class cancelation. About 10 minutes into my class, 30 women wandered into the confrence room where I was teaching to participate in what what we were doing. We had to make it an empty hand class because we didn't have enough weapons to go around. They figured since we were "martial arts," that it would all be the same. They were wrong.

I welcomed them to stay, but I warned them that what I was teaching would be entirely different then what they had done next door. They all stayed until the end, but most were probably disappointed. About 2/3 were just looking to get some cardio in, and were disappointed to find out that there wasn't as much cardio as an aerobics class. The other 1/3 were disappointed because they honestly thought that they were learning self defense in the cardio kickboxing class...and sadly, they found out that they were only wasting their time. 1/2 of those 1/3 didn't come back because of their discouragement. For the 5 or so who returned, they stuck around for a couple of months and got the best bang for their buck in terms of a self defense crash course that they could have ever asked for.

That cardio kickboxing instructor was a prime example of an instructor misleading students to believe that the product that was being delivered is something it wasn't.

 

[loki09789]

"That cardio kickboxing instructor was a prime example of an instructor misleading students to believe that the product that was being delivered is something it wasn't."

Look at the Tae Bo infomercials with all the "I work midnight as a nurse... and feel more confident walking to my car now..." Talk about misleading!


Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

Yeah. You notice that that it's always in the testimonials, and they never make any overt claims about self-defense. e.g.2) "I'm getting in shape, and I'm learning moves I can really use!" I hope Billy Blanks knows that I hate him.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by loki09789
"That cardio kickboxing instructor was a prime example of an instructor misleading students to believe that the product that was being delivered is something it wasn't."

Look at the Tae Bo infomercials with all the "I work midnight as a nurse... and feel more confident walking to my car now..." Talk about misleading!


Paul M

Oh I know, man! Its very fustrating to me....it seems almost customary to mislead in american "martial arts," which brings down the credability of the rest of us.

 

[loki09789]

Originally posted by PAUL
I'm suprised you asked, because the answer would be right up your alley. I think that for basic self defense as quickly as possible, more tactical training would be in order. She should learn some simple stupid techniques that take very little training to learn, along with the right tactics so she can have the proper mindset for defense.

Kickboxing teaches a lot of good things for the long run, but does little to teach them self defense for the short run.

PAUL

Well, I asked because I know what I think and would say, I want to know what you would say - not what I think you would think that I... ah heck!

I hope that you mean a set of basic fundamentals whe you use the stupid techniques term.

If this theoretical woman came to you as an instructor and said she wanted to be effective in 3 months, would you take her on as a student or recommend her to someone else? If you took her on, what would you do with her?

Paul M