Western 10th Degrees. Fake or legit?

hoshin1600

Senior Master
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
2,946
Reaction score
1,394
I know or have known more than my share of 10th dans. The first was as fake as the day is long. The other hand full are or were 100% real. Yes they had a minimum of 50 years training uechi-ryu and in their 70's 80 and 90's
 

pdg

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
3,568
Reaction score
1,032
Does this thread include easterners who have lived in the west for xxx years? Just curious.

What about those of eastern descent who were born in the west?

Or westerners who were born or raised in the east, or have lived there for xxx years?

How about - would someone with an eastern father and western mother automatically be capable of legitimately outranking someone with a western father and eastern mother but neither would be able to equal someone with two eastern parents?



I'm sure there's a word for making assumptions about somebody's authenticity or capability based on parentage or skin colour, but I really can't put my racism finger on it.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,774
Reaction score
7,558
Location
Hendersonville, NC
What about those of eastern descent who were born in the west?

Or westerners who were born or raised in the east, or have lived there for xxx years?

How about - would someone with an eastern father and western mother automatically be capable of legitimately outranking someone with a western father and eastern mother but neither would be able to equal someone with two eastern parents?



I'm sure there's a word for making assumptions about somebody's authenticity or capability based on parentage or skin colour, but I really can't put my racism finger on it.
I think the thought of it comes from the early days of the (Japanese) arts starting to gain traction in the West. At that time, the only highly experienced instructors were in Japan, so it made sense to talk about things in that context. If you trained in Japan, you generally got better instruction (more experienced instructors, more experienced training partners, no choke points in information, etc.). If you were promoted by a Japanese instructor, there was probably more consistency in quality. And most of the people doing those things were Japanese - because a bunch of them live in Japan (odd, that).

Fast forward 20 years, and that makes a lot less sense. Today, with even more decades (and generations) of proliferation, plus the easy ways to exchange information, I don't see where it makes any sense, at all.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,774
Reaction score
7,558
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I think the thought of it comes from the early days of the (Japanese) arts starting to gain traction in the West. At that time, the only highly experienced instructors were in Japan, so it made sense to talk about things in that context. If you trained in Japan, you generally got better instruction (more experienced instructors, more experienced training partners, no choke points in information, etc.). If you were promoted by a Japanese instructor, there was probably more consistency in quality. And most of the people doing those things were Japanese - because a bunch of them live in Japan (odd, that).

Fast forward 20 years, and that makes a lot less sense. Today, with even more decades (and generations) of proliferation, plus the easy ways to exchange information, I don't see where it makes any sense, at all.
@Tony Dismukes' rating on this reminded me that BJJ is a prime example of the issue. If a westerner with a high rank isn't legit, then there's not a single legit rank anywhere in BJJ. And theirs are among the more reliable ranks we could find (in meaning something specific and predictable).
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,158
Reaction score
1,825
Location
Southeast U.S.
What about those of eastern descent who were born in the west?

Or westerners who were born or raised in the east, or have lived there for xxx years?

How about - would someone with an eastern father and western mother automatically be capable of legitimately outranking someone with a western father and eastern mother but neither would be able to equal someone with two eastern parents?



I'm sure there's a word for making assumptions about somebody's authenticity or capability based on parentage or skin colour, but I really can't put my racism finger on it.
I didn't mean it as any kind of ethnic slur or advantage. But I am of an era when the majority of the legit high ranking instructors were not American. I suppose in this day and age it can be used as a deceitful advantage. I haven't dived into the lineage of a great many styles. One American who really impressed me was Rusty Gray from a Kung Fu lineage with Wang Ziping. I have worked out with many higher ranking Americans in TKD but few could carry themselves the way the Korean GM's of my early days did. Of course I was more impressionable back then. I do think it is a rougher sled to pull for an American to gain the pinnacle or MA respect.
 

pdg

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
3,568
Reaction score
1,032
I didn't mean it as any kind of ethnic slur or advantage. But I am of an era when the majority of the legit high ranking instructors were not American. I suppose in this day and age it can be used as a deceitful advantage. I haven't dived into the lineage of a great many styles. One American who really impressed me was Rusty Gray from a Kung Fu lineage with Wang Ziping. I have worked out with many higher ranking Americans in TKD but few could carry themselves the way the Korean GM's of my early days did. Of course I was more impressionable back then. I do think it is a rougher sled to pull for an American to gain the pinnacle or MA respect.

I wasn't necessarily pointing directly at you ;)

But the other comments do highlight how the term was sullied by people claiming master or GM ranks after a few years.

Maybe 'master' could've been justified if they 'lived' it, just, maybe...

People who started training before I was born may have a jaded view because of that?
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,144
Reaction score
7,433
Location
Maui
And then you have "Great Grandmaster" Fredrick J Villari who is a 12th Degree Black Belt.

A 12th.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,213
Location
In the dojo
I just don't get the need for that many ranks.
To one-up the competition. Or in this case, two-up it. If you’re 10th dan and I want to somehow prove I’m better than you, I’ll claim 12th dan and let your students know how superior I am to you and everyone else.

Quite simple, really. Yet quite pathetic.
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
6,158
Reaction score
1,825
Location
Southeast U.S.
I wasn't necessarily pointing directly at you ;)

But the other comments do highlight how the term was sullied by people claiming master or GM ranks after a few years.

Maybe 'master' could've been justified if they 'lived' it, just, maybe...

People who started training before I was born may have a jaded view because of that?
I didn't take any of it as directed at me. Credibility is an important issue for any school owner/instructor.
 

David Castro

White Belt
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
In 2003 I, along with several other people of various MA gave a Demo on Camp Zama. Several arts were represented, Chinese, Japanese, and "another”.

The “other” was a guy named Castro who claimed to be a 10th dan, Soke and had founded several MA organizations… one of them he called Japanese Ancient Jukato(JAJ); a mixture of Jiu-Jitsu and Karate, as well as, Matsudiara-Ryu Nihon-Jujutsu…...all bogus of course. At the event he solicted not only me but every other style to join his organization. I thought it was pretty ballzy of him to go around and ask people to join even though he had no idea who we were or what kind of people we are. Anyway all the groups demoed and Castro got up and claimed he was going to do an ancient sword kata using a katana developed by Chinese sword makers that were kidnapped and taken to a village in Japan. The Chinese sword makers developed this kata to protect the village from bandits. He then proceeded to turn on a boom box and do what looked like a combination of Tae-bo, aerobics and jazzdance with a katana in his hand, every once in a while scrapping it on the ground…..ugh….. the BS load got to me and after seeing this demo I wanted to kick the living crap out of this guy but was persuaded not to by a few friends. Come to find out he, as well as I, both worked on Camp Zama. I saw him on more than a few occasions and asked if he would care to work out……EVERYTIME he declined claiming injury to some part of his body...... can you say "wuss"?
Too bad he never took me up on my offer because I wanted to "dial in a choke" on this guy sooooo bad.


Here is Grandmaster Castor's Bio:
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Master Castro is the International Representative and President of FUMA(Federation of United Martial Artists) Japan. Master Castro was born on 10 December 1959, in Manhattan, New York. Master Castro is a ranked heavy professional martial artist who has studied since he was ten years old. He studied under Chinese Master Lo receiving his first Black Belt in 1976. He was awarded the 6th Degree Black Belt(Shihan/Master Rank) in Professor Kato's system of JAJ in 1996 and was awarded the rank of Grand Master in 2001. He is a member of the International Federation of Jiu-Jitsuans(IFOJJ). Master Castro also has a 4th Degree Black Belt(YonDan) in Japanese Okinawan Goju-Ryu, 4th Degree(YonDan) in Chinese Tiger Claw, and 2nd Degree(NiDan) in Taekwondo. His known competitor name is "White Tiger", winning over 50 stateside welter-weight championships. He is director of the Black Belt Unity Program(BBUP), dedicated to professional education and the development of Black Belt students and instructors. Master Castro was the U.S. Olympic Committee Representative for five years consecutively while assigned to Ft. Bragg, N.C. He trained the U.S. Army Taekwondo and Karate Teams, of which won Gold and Silver Medals in county, city, state, governor cup, region, national and international competitions. Some of his students own successful martial arts schools operationally located in Alabama, Florida, Kansas, Virginia, and New York. Master Castro was the head Instructor (Kouchou) for Jujutsu-Karate at Camp Zama, Japan, for approximately 13 years. Master Castro now teaches in Hawaii. One of his students is Instructor Nidan Kim W. Zornes. Master Castro has the following qualifications:[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Master Certified Examiner for: International Federation of Ju-Jitsuans(IFOJJ); U.S. Martial Arts Federation(USMAF); U.S. Jujitsu Federation(USJF); U.S. Martial Arts Association(USMAA); and the International Black Belt Unity Program(IBBUP).[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Certified Master Instructor for: Matsudiara-ryu Nihon-Jujutsu Honbu; Federation of United Martial Artists (FUMA); International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF); U.S. Martial Arts Association (USMAA); World Martial Arts Federation (WMAF).[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Military U.S. Olympic Coach for Martial Arts, Ft. Bragg, NC; 1991-1995[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Coach, Post Taekwondo and Karate Team, Ft. Bragg, NC; 1990-1995[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Instructor, Japanese Ancient Jukato, Jiujitsu-Karate; 1976-1996[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Master Instructor; 1996-present[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]International Masters Council Self Defense Champion; 1993-1995[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]International Masters Open Weapons Champion; 1993-1995[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]European Martial Arts Union Weapons Champion; 1994[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]International Martial Arts Federation Welter Weight Champion; 1991-1993[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]East Region Martial Arts Association Welter Weight Champion; 1991[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]World Martial Arts Federation Welter Weight Champion; 1984-1986[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Eighteen Presidential Citations for Jiujitsu-Karate and Martial Arts[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Seven Commendations, President's Sports Council[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]One US Olympic Committee Recognition Plaque[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Ft. Bragg Martial Arts Coach of the Year; 1992-1994[/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] Master of the Year 2002 for Japan, awarded by USMAA [/font]

[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] [font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2][/font]
[/font]
 

David Castro

White Belt
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
This is Dr. Castro to several posted discussions I've just read for the first time. These gentleman should have confronted me in person. I have never presented myself as a 10th Degree Black Belt ànd I've never been the best performer of kata. Moreso interested in techniques that worked. Anyhow, there will always be someone better. My credentials are legit. In 2004 I was a 6th Degree BB. And I never turned down an opportunity to train or randori. From 1998 to 2000, I taught kids under the MWR program at Camp Zama; 15 kids total. The class discontinued because MWR needed the space to support another requirement. Both I and the TKD instructor had to stop. As such, I asked mil & civ adults if they were interested. I trained eight adults from 2000 thru 2005. In 2004, without my knowledge, MWR added me to a demo list. MWR wanted my demo to be non traditional. Of course I was not prepared. The story of Okinawan sword makers was a true in history. Swords were prepared with temporary wooden hand grips. Japanese military would hassle sword makers in Okinawa during the war. When sword makers fought back they used the unfinished swords to defend themselves. I presented an old Okinawan kata although used electrical stun batons in attempt to sparkle the moment. Not sure what it looked like to the audience, but I was glad MWR liked it. There was much better demos then mine. And there was an unfortunate accident of more concern. When Master Onozaki kicked and broke a baseball bat a piece flew into the audience & injured a young boy. Back to these posted comments, these negative comments are unfounded. My credentials and rank are legit, my memberships are in good standing. I teach in Hawaii; unfortunately not at the moment until the COVID-19 Pandemic is cleared up. And I will continue teaching to the best of my ability.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,144
Reaction score
7,433
Location
Maui
This is Dr. Castro to several posted discussions I've just read for the first time. These gentleman should have confronted me in person. I have never presented myself as a 10th Degree Black Belt ànd I've never been the best performer of kata. Moreso interested in techniques that worked. Anyhow, there will always be someone better. My credentials are legit. In 2004 I was a 6th Degree BB. And I never turned down an opportunity to train or randori. From 1998 to 2000, I taught kids under the MWR program at Camp Zama; 15 kids total. The class discontinued because MWR needed the space to support another requirement. Both I and the TKD instructor had to stop. As such, I asked mil & civ adults if they were interested. I trained eight adults from 2000 thru 2005. In 2004, without my knowledge, MWR added me to a demo list. MWR wanted my demo to be non traditional. Of course I was not prepared. The story of Okinawan sword makers was a true in history. Swords were prepared with temporary wooden hand grips. Japanese military would hassle sword makers in Okinawa during the war. When sword makers fought back they used the unfinished swords to defend themselves. I presented an old Okinawan kata although used electrical stun batons in attempt to sparkle the moment. Not sure what it looked like to the audience, but I was glad MWR liked it. There was much better demos then mine. And there was an unfortunate accident of more concern. When Master Onozaki kicked and broke a baseball bat a piece flew into the audience & injured a young boy. Back to these posted comments, these negative comments are unfounded. My credentials and rank are legit, my memberships are in good standing. I teach in Hawaii; unfortunately not at the moment until the COVID-19 Pandemic is cleared up. And I will continue teaching to the best of my ability.

Welcome to Martial Talk, David. :)
 

Latest Discussions

Top