Many of the weapons in the MA were not originally used as weapons but as tools for various purposes. The kama was a sickle for use out in the field. The bo staff was used for carrying buckets of water over the shoulder and the nunchucks I believe was used as a flail for grain to name a few examples. Anyway, the tools of today can be used as weapons too. They should be incorporated into modern MA.
Weapon origins
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
Tools of today? Where are you going with this?
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The nunchaku wouldn't have been a good choice for threshing grain. The user wouldn't have enough leverage for that purpose, which is why grain flails had significantly longer handles.
This is an idea that would simply be a waste of time. With the plethora of knowledge out there regarding traditional weapons instruction, why bother re-inventing the wheel? If it's for learning how to make the weapons a natural extension of your own body, what could such instruction accomplish that good instruction in a traditional weapons system couldn't?
Also, who would be your information sources, regarding the actual instruction of the improvised weapons?
For that matter, are you actually going to have the tools in question on you during most of the hours of your day? It's going to look very silly if you were walking around carrying around a large pipe wrench, when you could easily carry a lockback, folding knife that would be a far more effective melee weapon (and legal in most places).
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Although I am pretty sure it strikes fear in the hearts of my neighbors as well as convince them I am certifiably insane...I swing around racks, hoes, shovels and all sorts of tools in my yard based on the MA weapons I already know, even throw small garden shovels like a knife to see if I can stick them in the ground... no need to make special forms....
Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane. Keeps everyone on their toes. lol
Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane. Keeps everyone on their toes. lol
- Thread Starter
- #6
Im talking about stuff such as tire irons or the good old fashioned hammer that you can get at your local hardware store, one of my favorites.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Although I am pretty sure it strikes fear in the hearts of my neighbors as well as convince them I am certifiably insane...I swing around racks, hoes, shovels and all sorts of tools in my yard based on the MA weapons I already know, even throw small garden shovels like a knife to see if I can stick them in the ground... no need to make special forms....
Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane. Keeps everyone on their toes. lol
I am not really into quoting myself but there is a line in this thread that I absolutely did not put there
Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane. Keeps everyone on their toes. lol
I did not put the above line in my post and I would REALLY like to know how it got there.
Especially if you can throw it across an international border, Thor.
Xue I believe I was responding to your post. Hit the quote button and it went into your post.
Sorry for any confusion!
Sorry for any confusion!
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
No worries, I was concerned someone hacked my account
I'm skeptical of many of those claims. Yes, a pole or staff can be used as a tool in various ways; it's about the only one I give any credence to the idea it was a tool "first." Some knives, maybe... War axes and wood chopping axes aren't designed the same. But a kama as a sickle? Probably not, the blade is in an inefficient orientation for the purpose. Maybe tonfa were really handles for mill stones... but again, I'd be surprised because the length would be less than efficient. I recall an article where someone tried to confirm the "origin" of nunchaku as rice flails, and pretty much got puzzled stares at best. Sure, a few (like the oar or I saw Chinese horse bench form once...) were and remained tools -- but I think most things that are weapons were weapons.
Bradnailer gunkata!
hoshin1600
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i was under the impression the kama was the only one on the list that was a real tool. i think it was used to cut small handfulls of grass or rice stocks or something.
as far as a hammer,, wonderfull weapon. one of my favorites. my personal favorite is a 22 ounce framing hammer with a waffle head. there is no asian traditional weapon equivilant. but there is a very rich history of war hammers thoughout history. very popular in old europe but the handle was much longer. and as a tradesman i have a few close by me or on my hip most of the day.
as far as a hammer,, wonderfull weapon. one of my favorites. my personal favorite is a 22 ounce framing hammer with a waffle head. there is no asian traditional weapon equivilant. but there is a very rich history of war hammers thoughout history. very popular in old europe but the handle was much longer. and as a tradesman i have a few close by me or on my hip most of the day.
I reckon I would go for a good ole Ax or a Ray Mears type hammer.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Oh dear...
No, a very small number of weapons, largely associated with Okinawan (Ryukyu) methodology, have apocryphal origin claims along these lines… but the majority of weapons were designed as, get this, weapons.
Yeah… note the above mention of "apocryphal claims"…
Hmm… that will really depend on the art itself. It's really got no place in a number of them… making blanket statements about what should or shouldn't be in systems is fraught with issues and can never be correct or accurate.
In other words, you're coming from an inaccurate understanding, with a lot of misconceptions, and are trying to apply that across the board where it's just not pragmatic, realistic, or appropriate. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that your single-definition way of expressing your ideas has lead to this particular statement, I'm guessing that you're actually meaning to say that, as a range of systems and weapons are thought to have their origins in more common, everyday items, rather than as purpose designed weapons (despite the fact that the majority of weapons are designed as weapons first and foremost), then perhaps modern self defence-oriented systems should look to other everyday items as potential tools for self defence as well… then… they do.
Systems such as MCMAP (and other military systems), Krav Maga etc teach the use of common-carry items in each of their contexts (using things like military shovels), there are a number of systems that have incorporated items such as Defensive Tactic Pens, kubotan, tomahawks, and more… and knives are possibly the most common form of weapon encountered in a martial art class across the board.
No, a very small number of weapons, largely associated with Okinawan (Ryukyu) methodology, have apocryphal origin claims along these lines… but the majority of weapons were designed as, get this, weapons.
Yeah… note the above mention of "apocryphal claims"…
Hmm… that will really depend on the art itself. It's really got no place in a number of them… making blanket statements about what should or shouldn't be in systems is fraught with issues and can never be correct or accurate.
In other words, you're coming from an inaccurate understanding, with a lot of misconceptions, and are trying to apply that across the board where it's just not pragmatic, realistic, or appropriate. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that your single-definition way of expressing your ideas has lead to this particular statement, I'm guessing that you're actually meaning to say that, as a range of systems and weapons are thought to have their origins in more common, everyday items, rather than as purpose designed weapons (despite the fact that the majority of weapons are designed as weapons first and foremost), then perhaps modern self defence-oriented systems should look to other everyday items as potential tools for self defence as well… then… they do.
Systems such as MCMAP (and other military systems), Krav Maga etc teach the use of common-carry items in each of their contexts (using things like military shovels), there are a number of systems that have incorporated items such as Defensive Tactic Pens, kubotan, tomahawks, and more… and knives are possibly the most common form of weapon encountered in a martial art class across the board.
- Thread Starter
- #17
The original tools might've been modified to be better used as weapons, for instance the tonfa might've been shortened or the blade for the kama might've been changed. Peasants didn't have swords so they used their tools for fighting. There are cases of weapons originating from tools that were designed for other purposes and then modified. The trident originated from the ordinary pitchfork.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Stop believing myths and movies… please.
Well considering the humble pitch fork is a middle ages tool and the trident a mythical weapon, that assertion has to be incorrect.
You need to find someone (a professional) who can help you to understand the difference between myth and reality.
For example... you have not made a single statement here that has any basis in reality.
The trident was a fishing spear and a not-terribly-good polearm.
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