Weapon based sparring

[Anarax]

These are the best padded sticks I've ever used. We use them frequently in sparring and they have great dimensions and weight to them. You can swing hard and it delivers enough force to help you remember your defense. Locks and chokes are the only things that are difficult to pull off with padded sticks. but IMO they're the best padded sticks on the market

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What do people think of "shock knives"?

Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?

I haven't tried one. I don't know if they'd penetrate a heavy gi. Being a hard knife, I wouldn't want to do hard stabbing with them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They're used for training not self defense, they even state so on their website

I assumed he meant self-defense training (scenario training), rather than sparring. I agree with you - they are unlikely to be very effective for self-defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

These are the best padded sticks I've ever used. We use them frequently in sparring and they have great dimensions and weight to them. You can swing hard and it delivers enough force to help you remember your defense. Locks and chokes are the only things that are difficult to pull off with padded sticks. but IMO they're the best padded sticks on the market

Excellent - I've been looking for something and meaning to ask for opinions. And those aren't very expensive, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I think this is exactly the problem. Training with a killing weapon without killing

And training with a bruising/breaking weapon without bruising/breaking. If we use a stick properly for self-defense, we'd hope to disable the attacker in as few blows as possible. We'd hope not to actually disable our training partners, at all.

 

[hoshin1600]

What do people think of "shock knives"?

Maybe good for self defence training but not for sparring?

i would like to get a set. from what i remember they are for slashing attacks and it is not recommended for thrusting and stabbing actions. the electric wires are on the side edges. i think they would be good for sparring, but again you are limited to slashing.

 

[Blindside]

i would like to get a set. from what i remember they are for slashing attacks and it is not recommended for thrusting and stabbing actions. the electric wires are on the side edges. i think they would be good for sparring, but again you are limited to slashing.

They are an expensive training tool that doesn't get you very much. Once the adrenaline gets going you won't feel the "cut," you are just as well off going with an aluminum training knife and a partner willing to hit you hard.

 

[Blindside]

The original Dog Brothers, Marc, Eric and Arlan were trained by Inosanto and are very well trained Martial Artist. Dog brothers have a lot of knowledge and experience that almost anyone can benefit from. However; their gathering are barbaric and unstructured. If you haven't seen their gatherings go to Youtube and search dog brothers, they upload the highlights. There is a fine line between training hard and training recklessly, they cross that line frequently. In their gatherings I've seen participants get their head gashed open, knees separated and impaled with training knives. A lot of the gathering participants aren't even that skilled, they just run out there swinging wildly with not footwork not technique.

MEMA? Do you mean HEMA? If so I don't have any personal experience with HEMA, but from what I've seen they have a good approach.

I compete regularly at DB Gatherings and I will differ from your opinion of Dog Brothers. I will certainly agree that we aren't all master level fighters but there are a bunch of us that can more than hold their own in any format. In any group you will have a range of skill levels are you surprised that some guys aren't good? As for it being reckless, that is a matter of opinion, you can't really learn about yourself unless you push your limits, DBs has done that for FMA more than any other group that I have met. Dog Brothers isn't an elite fighting organization, it is just a bunch of guys willing to play hard, but I have no doubt that the top fighters in DBs are some of the top stick fighters in the world.

As for HEMA, I really like their approach and think their competition approach is pretty good.

 

[Blindside]

No, do not use a fencing mask. Fencing masks aren't designed for impact, they're are designed for fencing. Take a look at the guy at 2:03, I don't think his mask did a great job of protecting him. Use an escrima helmet, if you can't afford that then use padded sticks with eye protection

The downside of the those helmets is that you can't thrust to the face with a training knife or sword. And the current generation of fencing masks is really quite protective they have come a looooong way since that video was taken. Hell, those masks were antiques then. Gen III masks are effectively the same base mask that HEMA is using for longsword work which hit way harder than any single hand rattan that you have.

 

[Anarax]

there are a bunch of us that can more than hold their own in any format

I have no doubt of this, as I said the original DBs are highly skilled guys, thus I wouldn't be surprised that they have at least some skilled students

In any group you will have a range of skill levels are you surprised that some guys aren't good?

No I'm not surprised, but why do so many of the DBs videos(videos they edited themselves) showcase so many awful participants showing very little to no skill?

As for it being reckless, that is a matter of opinion, you can't really learn about yourself unless you push your limits, DBs has done that for FMA more than any other group that I have met

Pushing oneself to the limit and training intelligently aren't mutually exclusive. In their videos I've seen guys knee bones separated, heads and faces gashed open, bones broken and other needless injuries. We spar hard at my school but we 1) have a certain understanding of what to do 2) take proper safety precautions(though we still get bruises and other minor injuries) and 3) make sure we gain something from sparring. A lot of the DB participants seem to have a chip on the shoulder. The guys knee who was separated was blasted by the other guy, it seemed intentional, he needed multiple surgeries afterwards but it still wasn't right again. Is that really worth whatever it is these guys think they are gaining by doing that? I've seen others strike people in the skull(no mask) with the punyo(butt of the stick) and some guy who put a cue ball in a pillow case and was hitting people as hard as he could with it. With all due respect these things are barbaric and totally pointless.

 

[Blindside]

No I'm not surprised, but why do so many of the DBs videos(videos they edited themselves) showcase so many awful participants showing very little to no skill?

Thats a good question, I think the European DBs highlight videos do a better job showcasing the skillsets than the American ones (different editor.) Though I have done highlight videos and two skilled guys moving around countering each other really doesn't make a highlight reel very often, highlight reels are all sizzle.

Pushing oneself to the limit and training intelligently aren't mutually exclusive. In their videos I've seen guys knee bones separated, heads and faces gashed open, bones broken and other needless injuries. We spar hard at my school but we 1) have a certain understanding of what to do 2) take proper safety precautions(though we still get bruises and other minor injuries) and 3) make sure we gain something from sparring. A lot of the DB participants seem to have a chip on the shoulder. The guys knee who was separated was blasted by the other guy, it seemed intentional, he needed multiple surgeries afterwards but it still wasn't right again. Is that really worth whatever it is these guys think they are gaining by doing that? I've seen others strike people in the skull(no mask) with the punyo(butt of the stick) and some guy who put a cue ball in a pillow case and was hitting people as hard as he could with it. With all due respect these things are barbaric and totally pointless.

When I spar at a HEMA type tournament or my guys at my home school I don't get a adrenaline rush, I am not worried about being hurt. At DBs there is the very real possibility that I will be hurt and dealing with the adrenaline is more than half of what I get out of the fight. I literally can't simulate this in another environment without picking fights in the real world and that is just dumb. I do know that every time I have done this I have gotten better about dealing with the adrenaline, my combat computer is running better and I can access better skillsets. I am not all that much better than my first Gathering but I can do a lot more now. I have watched really skilled guys who don't look all that good in their first Gatherings, adrenaline does funny things to people.

As for having a chip on their shoulder, it is exactly the opposite, the egos are totally in check, I have seen stupid karate point fighting tournaments with far more ego in the room. There is never (well almost never) anything malicious about a fight at a Gathering, it is all about pushing the other guy to the limit, and yes sometimes you miss that limit and go too far, but it is never malicious. As for barbarism, I guess it can be seen as such from the outside, but from the inside it is done for fun and as I said before, to challenge ones fears. One guy challenged me to a chain match this year and my first response was "F no!" After some cajoling and some friendly peer pressure I agreed to fight him with chains even though I have never done it before and quite frankly it looks really damn scary. That fight never happened, he got hurt before we could go but I will tell you what, I suspect he and I will get another dance with chains at the next Gathering because I have been given some time to think about it and think there are a couple of things that I can do that will surprise him. Gatherings aren't really about being safe they are about challenging yourself. You can't train like that everyday, most DBs train light sticks or padded sticks at their home schools, Gatherings are fights not training.

 

[Finlay]

Chains huh?

That would be interesting.

Just for my curiosity how long are they?

 

[Blindside]

Chains huh?

That would be interesting.

Just for my curiosity how long are they?

64 inches doubled and then hooked together with a carabiner to hold onto, so the overall length was around 32 inches or so.

 

[Finlay]

So a little shy of a metre

Interesting. Maybe too small an arc to get inside unless you were very quick

Quite hard for wrapping too I am guessing

 

[Blindside]

So a little shy of a metre

Interesting. Maybe too small an arc to get inside unless you were very quick

Quite hard for wrapping too I am guessing

Good analysis, pretty much my take as well.

 

[Blindside]

Hello

What are your opinions on weapon based sparring.

There seem to be a couple of different approaches. The first hit approach where you try to tag your opponent before they get you. This would be like fencing or Kendo

The other approach seem to be sort of a go hell for leather, LeRoy Jenkins type approach. This would be like WEKAF way of doing things. This to me seems extremely difficult to judge

In between I guess would be things like the dog brothers styles or MEMA.

One other approach is to put lipstick or paint on training knives and then see how well you can mark up your opponent. This would maybe be more for training than sparring however.

What do others think of the weapons based sparring apporach?

I think there is a difference between training and then coming up with a ruleset that allows you to do it in competition. In training it is relatively easy to acknowledge when you got hit on an afterblow or recognize that even if you were fractionally faster the other guys shot would have landed as well. Our general policy is that any trade is a bad trade, we tend to emphasize "blade based" sparring because it tends to be more technical than stick based, I find that is easier to go from bladed to stick assumptions rather than the other way around. My own group uses padded sticks for beginners and light rattan for my more advanced guys.

I really hate the WEKAF approach, great for cardio and hitting hard and not much else.

Obviously I am a fan of the DB approach, though the Gatherings are usually "this is a stick" and we use bigger sticks than your average FMA school to make rattan actually useful as an impact weapon. When other weapons are used more care is taken. See this highlight reel as an example, it has a lot more sword in it than other reels:

This isn't a ruleset, it is an acknowledgement that we aren't actually trying to kill each other, literally the main rule is: "be friends at the end of the day." The caveat is that we can still be friends if I break something of you as long as it wasn't malicious, and hopefully it was something unimportant like a finger, becasue that is just the cost of playing hard.

For a competition format I really like what some of our area HEMA groups are using, which is a stop action tournament but has provisions for afterblows and double hits. Double hits are really frowned upon and has a highly negative influence on the scoring. The ruleset that these groups use are from CombatCon. 2016 Tournament Rules - CombatCon

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

posted in wrong thread.

 

[Anarax]

I think the European DBs highlight videos do a better job showcasing the skillsets than the American ones (different editor.)

I haven't seen that much of a difference between the American and European videos

highlight reels are all sizzle.

Do you mean to show action opposed to skill(I'm not being condescending I really want to know)?

At DBs there is the very real possibility that I will be hurt and dealing with the adrenaline is more than half of what I get out of the fight. I literally can't simulate this in another environment without picking fights in the real world and that is just dumb.

Isn't that what sparring is for? When I'm sparring a black belt trying to take my head off that training is very real and they push me to feel like I'm fighting for real. Learning to deal with that helps me control my adrenaline in a street altercation. Imagine if soldiers were fired with live rounds directly at them for training purposes? It would be reckless and needless to do so. They fire blanks that sounds like live rounds or fire live rounds clearly missing them.

I do know that every time I have done this I have gotten better about dealing with the adrenaline, my combat computer is running better and I can access better skillsets

Is the relatively moderate probability of getting a debilitating injury worth it though? If you do get injured you'll lose more training in the long run given you'll need a recovery period and might have life long problems

I am not all that much better than my first Gathering

I don't understand, why go then?

As for having a chip on their shoulder, it is exactly the opposite, the egos are totally in check, I have seen stupid karate point fighting tournaments with far more ego in the room.

I didn't say DBs people are the only people I've seen with chips on their shoulders. Lets use your example of karate point fighting though. In point fighting you are disqualified for excessive contact or unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't think many people compete in point fighting to hurt the other person, given the rule set. However; at the gatherings it seems with the intent and techniques thrown and even the weapons used, more than a few of the participants go there with the intentions on hurting someone or proving something. This makes this situations that more volatile.

There is never (well almost never) anything malicious about a fight at a Gathering, it is all about pushing the other guy to the limit, and yes sometimes you miss that limit and go too far, but it is never malicious

Lacking the control to not exceed a certain limit and start swinging to kill is malicious. Regardless of the handshakes or hugs given after the fight, it meaningless when one of the guys was trying kill the other and destroy his knees.

As for barbarism, I guess it can be seen as such from the outside, but from the inside it is done for fun and as I said before, to challenge ones fears.

The Filipinos, who have more experience and have Kali/Escrima in there blood and is heavily ingrained in their culture, don't train with this method. Do they train hard? Yes, but they do so with the mindset to not cause injury, opposed to having intentions to cause injury. You can watch documentaries on Kali/Escrima in the Philippines, and a lot of the schools either wear padded gear, use padded sticks or spar with control with rattan with no protection. I have no doubt when the Filipinos practitioners are in a real encountered, they retain almost everything, not wildly swinging forgetting everything they know. Essentially, they achieve the same thing but less recklessly.

You can't train like that everyday, most DBs train light sticks or padded sticks at their home schools, Gatherings are fights not training.

I understand that, but the Gatherings are planned, scheduled and hosted by the DBs, thus it reflects on them.

 

[Blindside]

Do you mean to show action opposed to skill(I'm not being condescending I really want to know)?

Yup, showing action rather than skill, most people watching a highlight reel don't know what they are looking at, and this is more true of weapon based martial arts than many unarmed arts.

Isn't that what sparring is for? When I'm sparring a black belt trying to take my head off that training is very real and they push me to feel like I'm fighting for real. Learning to deal with that helps me control my adrenaline in a street altercation. Imagine if soldiers were fired with live rounds directly at them for training purposes? It would be reckless and needless to do so. They fire blanks that sounds like live rounds or fire live rounds clearly missing them.

So this may work for you, I have no idea about what your level is, I know that some of my students got adrenaline rushes the first time they sparred in our class, but they become used to the level relatively quickly and we then up the level. I am an instructor, I don't get any sort of adrenaline dump facing my students, I have really good fighters, but I implicitly trust them too much and we have fought too often. Doing DBs pushes me beyond sparring into something that is more like an actual fight, different level and as I said before I can't simulate this at my school, my brain thinks it is safe. DBs is a compromise between being not safe and being actually deadly. To push your soldier analogy I don't spar with live blades, that would be stupid, but I accept that the risk of breaking things is a level I am willing to play at. Paratroopers jump out of airplanes as part of their training even though it is an inherently unsafe activity, it is a level of risk that the military is willing to take with their soldiers and a paratrooper must be willing to take to be certfied for that job. I don't think DBs is for everybody, but it was and is helpful to me.

Is the relatively moderate probability of getting a debilitating injury worth it though? If you do get injured you'll lose more training in the long run given you'll need a recovery period and might have life long problems

I don't understand, why go then?

Clearly the risk is worth it to me, it doesn't sound like it is to you, this isn't something that is for everyone. I haven't lost training time, out of five Gatherings and six days of fighting I have broken one finger bone, it gave me six weeks of focused training with my left hand. I also think you have a misperceived understanding of the risk, Out of the five Gatherings I have been to I have only seen one really serious injury (split patella), the rest have been a couple of fractured ribs, a couple of shoulder injuries, at least two broken fingers/hands a Gathering, and a whole bunch of contusions and lacerations. That is probably out of 400 fights. (One of my students was the medic for two years.) If you compare that to the injury rate of say, girls cheerleading or gymnastics or mens football I suspect it pales in comparison.

One of the benefits that I haven't mentioned is that I get to fight against strangers, guys with totally different fighting styles than anything I have seen at my school and this is something that you literally can't get if you train with an insular group.

My general skill level hasn't grown that much because I am on the high end of my learning curve, what I am getting far better at is applying that skill. Lets say that in the five years that I have been going to DB Gatherings my general skill level has gotten 20% higher (I am just making up numbers here), but the important thing is that my ability to access those skills has grown by 60%. Does that make sense?

I didn't say DBs people are the only people I've seen with chips on their shoulders. Lets use your example of karate point fighting though. In point fighting you are disqualified for excessive contact or unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't think many people compete in point fighting to hurt the other person, given the rule set. However; at the gatherings it seems with the intent and techniques thrown and even the weapons used, more than a few of the participants go there with the intentions on hurting someone or proving something. This makes this situations that more volatile.

You said that they seem to have chips on their shoulders and I told you that we don't. When I am going there I am absolutely trying to stop my opponent that doesn't mean that I "have a chip on my shoulder." That implies that I have a grudge or a bad attitude. There is nothing malicious about our fight, we are both entering this to push the other guy.

Lacking the control to not exceed a certain limit and start swinging to kill is malicious. Regardless of the handshakes or hugs given after the fight, it meaningless when one of the guys was trying kill the other and destroy his knees.

I would argue that the limited number of serious injuries from the Gatherings that I have actually attended says that the control is actually quite good. And again malice implies ill will or evil intent, there is absolutely none of that. Is it malicious if you blacken a guys eye in a sparring match at your school? Not in my opinion, you both went in there knowing that was a risk.

The Filipinos, who have more experience and have Kali/Escrima in there blood and is heavily ingrained in their culture, don't train with this method. Do they train hard? Yes, but they do so with the mindset to not cause injury, opposed to having intentions to cause injury. You can watch documentaries on Kali/Escrima in the Philippines, and a lot of the schools either wear padded gear, use padded sticks or spar with control with rattan with no protection. I have no doubt when the Filipinos practitioners are in a real encountered, they retain almost everything, not wildly swinging forgetting everything they know. Essentially, they achieve the same thing but less recklessly.

Do they achieve the same thing? How do you know? Stories handed down about death matches? I have had the chance to spar with some of the students of those Filipino instructors, some are good, lots aren't, and many won't even gear up. I have talked to students from the Philippines about the value of DB type sparring and some lament that they don't do more of it. And yes, when under stress some of the Filipinos did revert to "wildly swinging." Hell, I have watched the son of a well known grandmaster basically do nothing more than ones and twos with no footwork. This is a guy who literally grew up in the system and is presumably privy to all the "secrets," he is currently set to inherit the system whenever his father passes on. Be careful about putting the "masters from the Philippines" on a pedestal.

 

[Anarax]

most people watching a highlight reel don't know what they are looking at, and this is more true of weapon based martial arts than many unarmed arts.

Wouldn't that imply they are trying to appeal to those untrained in weaponry?

To push your soldier analogy I don't spar with live blades, that would be stupid, but I accept that the risk of breaking things is a level I am willing to play at. Paratroopers jump out of airplanes as part of their training even though it is an inherently unsafe activity, it is a level of risk that the military is willing to take with their soldiers and a paratrooper must be willing to take to be certfied for that job.

The blanks or intentional greatly missed shots are used to get the soldiers use to the Psychological strain of combat. My point was that this can be achieved without having to recreate the environment under the same exact conditions that a real combat situation would be(shooting at them with live rounds). The paratrooper jump is a different situation. Yes there is a psychological aspect to it, but it's more so the skill of jumping out of the plane and making it safely to your objective on the ground. The weapons fire is more psychological conditioning.

Clearly the risk is worth it to me, it doesn't sound like it is to you, this isn't something that is for everyone

The risk must always be comparable to what's a stake. If I'm defending my life or someone else's life, then yes it is worth it. Going to a gathering and risking permanent injury so I feel like I accomplished something isn't worth it to me. I think sparring hard with highly trained guys at my school or another school is more structured and there's more to be gained from doing so. The only challenge from achieving the same thing you're saying you get at the gathering is escalating the sparring to the point where the adrenaline starts flowing. However; I can see how you being the instructor at your school makes this more difficult given your students can't press you to that point.

out of five Gatherings and six days of fighting I have broken one finger bone

I'm glad you haven't sustained great injuries attending, but you have been very fortunate. You sound more experienced than a lot of the guys there, so I'm sure that's played a significant factor in you avoiding serious injury. I've seen horrific injuries in their videos and those are just the visible ones. Getting cracked in the head with a stick at full force affects your brain and motor skills, it's not only the enormous open gash the stick leaves behind. You only need a handful(no pun intended) of severe strikes like that to have lasting effects from it.

I also think you have a misperceived understanding of the risk, Out of the five Gatherings I have been to I have only seen one really serious injury (split patella), the rest have been a couple of fractured ribs, a couple of shoulder injuries, at least two broken fingers/hands a Gathering, and a whole bunch of contusions and lacerations.

I'm getting the information from the videos their own organization edits and uploads. I'm sharing what I've seen in their videos, anyone is welcome to go and watch them and tell me I wrong in my injury assessment. DB are honest and upfront about the risk involved in their gatherings and don't underplay what it is that they do. They seem to give you a clear picture in the video on what to expect, as far as intensity and injury. They usually go in with the camera to give the watcher an idea how severe the injuries are.

If you compare that to the injury rate of say, girls cheerleading or gymnastics or mens football I suspect it pales in comparison.

When injuries occur in cheer leading or gymnastics it's when something went wrong. They landed wrong, their timing was off, etc.The gatherings on the other hand are intended to be full contact, and if someone is injured(minor or major) that means one person was successful in their attack and achieved what they meant to.

One of the benefits that I haven't mentioned is that I get to fight against strangers, guys with totally different fighting styles than anything I have seen at my school and this is something that you literally can't get if you train with an insular group.

That depends on the size of your group and martial arts community you have. We have a large class where I train, and other classes are offered their by other instructors. It's a very informal environment and my instructor said each class has an understanding that you can spar one another if you want. I have done this and I agree that there is something to be gained from it. We are also encouraged to travel to affiliate schools to train and spar with others.

My general skill level hasn't grown that much because I am on the high end of my learning curve, what I am getting far better at is applying that skill.

That's good, but are you entirely sure this can't be achieved by sparring people better than you in a structured environment? I understand if you're more skilled thus it's more difficult for you to find someone who can out class you. However; if you could choose between training/sparring under someone much more skilled than you opposed to the gatherings, which would you choose?

When I am going there I am absolutely trying to stop my opponent that doesn't mean that I "have a chip on my shoulder."

Would that involve striking someone as hard as you can in the knee or skull?

Is it malicious if you blacken a guys eye in a sparring match at your school?

Black eye? No. Kicking will force into my opponents knee or driving my elbow into their skull at full force? Yes

Be careful about putting the "masters from the Philippines" on a pedestal.

I'm not putting them on a pedestal. My point was they have other approaches and have many highly skilled masters. I read that approximately 80% of the murders in the Philippines are done with knives or some type of blade. Thus Kali is a way of life and living for them.

I can understand that someone in your position might have something to gain by going to the gatherings. You have peaked in your training and have a difficult time finding a way to further your abilities. What I see in a lot of their videos are the more(only comparable to their opponents of course) skilled guys beating the hell out of the lesser skilled guys, that bothers me. It would be the same as seeing a black belt beating the hell out of a white or yellow belt. There's a fine line between being a challenging sparring partner and taking of advantage/ bullying.

The three original DBs started their sparring group so they could challenge each other more. I agree highly skilled martial artists like them need to challenge each other to grow as martial artists. However; they were Inosanto's students, thus I have not doubt how exceptionally well trained they were/are. When you then expand a small group like theirs to an enormous group of people that includes those with very little to no training, I think that detracts from the original concept/reason of the groups creation.