sparring, blade based vs. stick based

[billc]

I came across this video on my youtube page, youtube (HAL) found it and put it up there for me. It brought to mind the difference between sword based practice vs. stick based practice. It has been mentioned to me that the philosphy you tend to find in stick fighters is, "yes, you hit me, but I am now going to hit you more and harder." And since the weapon is a stick, it is possible to absorb a lot of punishment. Sword based sparring is different, in a way. True, a stick can knock you out, but if you are hit across a long bone or across the abdomen, it hurts, a lot, but is not necessarily debilitating. Another example, you can be thrust into the chest or abdomen with a stick, and once again, it may hurt, a lot, but unless you hit the solar plexus, the odds are you can suck it up and continue. A hard thrust with a sword causes the body to go into shock(?) and blood loss. Having watched a lot of Dog Brothers and other stick fighting matches, how would you change the sparring to take into account the differences in a sword. Just swinging at each other, without regard to the point and edge of the sword doesn't seem like a viable way to train with a sword.:s59:

I finally found a way to put in the fencing smilies.

 

[billc]

See, even the fencing smilies know they have to avoid the blade.

 

[billc]

I guess it might help to show the video that inspired this post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_8hRiGp8yg&feature=feedrec_grec_index

 

[MJS]

To be honest, I've never done any sparring with a sword. I'd imagine it'd have to be set up like a fencing match, for safety reasons. As you said, with the sticks, theres alot more that you can do. Personally, I enjoy the stick sparring. Its certainly an eye opener, as it seperates what you will actually be able to pull off, from alot of the fancy stuff that you see.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whilst it is not quite the mythology of "one cut, one kill", in Iai, every cut is designed to either disable, dismember, render the target deceased or set up one of those consequences. JSA fighting against a single opponent is over very quickly once it starts;it really does not resemble 'sparring' as we are used to from our unarmed arts. That's why partner forms are scripted and are really only for highly trained practitioners {shodan and above}.

I'll see if I can find some video of partner forms ...

 

[Sukerkin]

Here is something I found:

[yt]RQ-1h-d_sZE[/yt]

Please be advised that altho' this is a pair of 8th Dans performing what purports to be Tachi Uchi, this does not match what I have been taught nor what I have seen of footage of very senior swordsman (such as Sensei Iwata). Altho' it is not for me to say, I would be shocked if this standard was considered good enough for 8th Dan.

However, criticisms of style (as if I'd dare ) aside, I think you can see that 'sparring' with a sword is very quickly over .

 

[Ken Morgan]

Suk both you and I practice the same school, and this set of kata is one that we both do, but there is no way in the world those were 8thdans! None. We always practice this set with bokken, so you can hit hard and fast and not worry about damaging blades. Again this looks like maybe some 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] or 3[SUP]rds [/SUP]using swords for the first time while doing this demo.

If you want to spar with swords, you practice Kendo. Sword fights, as Suk has said are over very, very quickly a cut 1/8 of an inch deep and 12 inches long is enough to put ones body into shock, the fight is over at that point.

 

[billc]

I have found with some practice in stick and sword based arts that some of the things done, especially with a stick, do not translate to a sword. For example, what the Fma's would call roof, or wing blocks, are not exactly going to apply to a blade. The JSA also have their version of these blocks, as shown in the first kata, where the sword is blocked, (yikes,) with the sword, and you hear that horrifying "ting" sound. One of the things in the FMA is the thought that the stick and sword can simply be interchanged, and that would not exactly be accurate.

 

[mook jong man]

I did one system for a while where you block the stick with your stick and then grab his stick with your free hand and do the disarm.

The problem with that is , what if it's a machete ?
You have trained it so much that the chances are , you are not going to differentiate and you are going to grab the machete like it was a stick and slice your hand.

Years later I trained in a system where it is always assumed that even though we are training with a stick in our hands it is really considered to be a machete so there is no grabbing of the weapon , it is just a very minimal deflection with your own stick (machete) and then you counter strike straight away .

 

[Ken Morgan]

I also train in jodo, jo vs. Sword. You can do one hell of a lot of damage to a sword and a swordsman, with a stick. There are a great many similarities in how you hit with a jo and how you hit with a sword, grip is the same, distancing and timing are the same. My experience, only 12 years, is that there are only so many ways to swing a sword or a stick, and really as you learn them all, they are all the same.

A sample of Jodo from our seminar this past May. Of course realise that jodo is kata based, any “real life” or “on the street” moves would be….deadlier.

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: I tried to rep you for putting up that wonderful clip of Bo versus To, Ken ... but the embedded clip overlays the Rep box making it impossible to type into . So public,in-thread, thanks will have to suffice on this one .

As a 'pure' swordsman, it's wonderful stuff to see. I really enjoy watching the Katori chaps doing kata with mismatched weapons and it's something I'd love to try one day ... one day ...

EDIT: Ahh, good ... adding this post so that Ken's wasn't the last one in the thread cured the problem :tup:.

 

[Ken Morgan]

What the clip doesn’t show is that, “on the street”, the jo is being smashed into tachi’s wrist, eyes and solar plexus. Where ever you see jo side coming up and near the eyes, in real life, he’s hitting the eyes, when you see strikes to the sword, they are happening much faster then shown. The strike happens in 1/20 of a second after tachi moves into chudan. We have work and school in the morning, so to break bones or swords seems a bit of an over kill. Though it is rare to come out of practice without bruises that last over a week.

This is the first video I have ever seen of myself practicing jodo.

Now I have the last post in this discussion again….

 

[Blindside]

Having watched a lot of Dog Brothers and other stick fighting matches, how would you change the sparring to take into account the differences in a sword. Just swinging at each other, without regard to the point and edge of the sword doesn't seem like a viable way to train with a sword.:s59:

I find the biggest difference is simply the assumption going into the match, I start my guys out sparring with the assumption of the blade though it is still the same fat padded stick someone else would use as a stick. Getting them to understand the edge of range better and getting out of the mentality of "trading blows" with someone, the emphasis on the use of the point is an important consideration as well. Later, when they get a good understanding of that range, I will then introduce the assumption of the "stick." As an example, this is sparring match where the assumption of the blade is prevalent and you hear us acknowledging what would be even minor hits in a stick match. It stops being a blade match when it turns into a stickgrappling match after the second disarm.

In our sparring we often do mismatched sets, stick against blade, knife against stick, but alot of that has to come from the mentality of the players and the understanding they have of the nature of the weapon, and how that will impact their tactics.

 

[MJS]

I did one system for a while where you block the stick with your stick and then grab his stick with your free hand and do the disarm.

The problem with that is , what if it's a machete ?
You have trained it so much that the chances are , you are not going to differentiate and you are going to grab the machete like it was a stick and slice your hand.

Years later I trained in a system where it is always assumed that even though we are training with a stick in our hands it is really considered to be a machete so there is no grabbing of the weapon , it is just a very minimal deflection with your own stick (machete) and then you counter strike straight away .

Good points, no pun intended. LOL! There are alot of locks, traps, etc, in the art that I do, so grabbing onto the stick does come into play alot, of course, depending on what you're doing. Of course, one thing that I like to do is instead of always targetting the stick, target the hand, wrist or arm. IMO, it gives a different feel to the way the disarms, techniques, etc, are done.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Blade vs Stick Training or sparring or what have you

Step 1: Pick up a blade. Look at the blade. Understand the balde. The weight and mass and the balance point and how the edge is and the style of blade and if it si a thrusting weapon or a hacking weapon or a slicing weapon or ... , . Do this with multiple blades of different sizes.

If serious, get an old pair of jeans. Get some roast or steaks and wrap them in the jean legs. Then cut and stab into the Jean leg and see the damage to teh jean and to the meat. Works best with fat layer still on beed. (* when you are done you cube up the meet for stew or something like that. Of course wash and do not let set out too long. *)


Step 2: Pick up a stick and study it the same way. Pick up multiple styles of sticks in shapes and mass.

If you truly understand the attributes of the weapon then you can try to absorb it in training. If you have never seen a balde cut or held one you will never understand how it really works.

As to sparring:

Step 1:
Option 1: Take all Safety items away. Use a padded stick no head gear no cup and no hand pads. Define the type of blade. Fencing and thrusting or Sabre with tip cutting or Mechete with Hacking capabilities.

Judge or third person needs to be aware and call stop after first contact is made and review that contact. (* Note stricks should be made with intent to people feel pain. This is a must. *)

You then realize with the intent how hard that "blade" *padded stick* hit you and you begin to imagine the damage to your hand and body. (* hence why people wore gauntlets and body and head armor *)

Option 2: get one a lipstick/paint knife and use it. Once again no pads and no safety equipment. Have judge call stop after initial contact. (* If judge does not call stoppage for contact the blade turns into a paint brush with no real techniques or intent other than to get as much color on your opponent. *) Review the cut or stab and continue. Change shirts as required.

Option 3: Get real swords and learn how to use them. Most would learn with wood first and then metal. Once you know the motions and then some controlled techniques you then are tested as the other person's skill set is good enough to drive the timing of the test and to control the situation.

Step 2: Use safety gear as you now know and understand the damage done to your body first hand. You now respect the blade and weapon. Repeat techniques of training as listed above but with proper safety equipment.

Now given our culture and not being blade based, and our society for legal problems and people needing to go to work, the next day, most start with a stick and learn some techniques and then go to pads and safety gear and try to apply what they have learned. This is good in today's society for two reasons. 1) You do not get sued. 2) You are more likely to find a blunt obect for weapon of opportunity then a bladed one.

The issue is what do we do with people who have never touched a balde and do not understand the attributes of the weapon. Most can pick it up through a good demo, and a few will want to try it as well. But most, will walk away. Most will stop training. Most will become sick to their stomache and think you are wierder than anything they thought before and call you crazy. (* some people will think this of me for writing this especially about the beef meat in the pant leg *)

So, people need to pay bills and keep students, so they have controlled techniques and solo techniques and safety equipment and replace the blade with a blunt object and then train said blunt object for both blade and blunt. Most people will be lazy and think of it as one way alone eithe stick or blade.


As to the point made about grabbing and how bad that is, I can agree to a point. If you grab my stick you have tied yourself to my stick and if my timing and counter are in place you can be in a world of hurt. But that is a side discussion. So I will say touching instead.

Touching Stick versus hand for Blade.

I will ask some questions and answer them myself.

Do you drive a car? Have you ever driven a truck? It requires a slightly different skill set to back it up. Add in a trailer for both.

Ok, How about cooking? Can you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? yes. Now how about a PB and Jam sandwich. Less Jam is required, one has to adjust. Can you make a batch of chili for four people and one for 20?

If you are at speed on the highway and someone enters you lane do you have to stop your car and then get back up to speed if they are only going a few miles an hour less than you? No, you can slow down and adjust.

If you ar walking in a store and someone steps out in front of you do you keep walking or do you adjust your speed to avoid a collision?

(* Yes there are times when you cannot avoid the car in front of you and the people in front of you. But almost always you try to do something and not just blindly go along and hit them. *)


If you blindly always do something and you can only do it that way do you truly understand it? I say no.

So each and every time I place my hand on a stick I choose to be there. If I want to be on the hand I choose to be there. You can already adjust your stick to deal with a high versus a mid strike with your primary hand, and now you should be able to that with your off hand as well.

Of course mileage will vary and personal testing is required for best results and as always my opinion is mine and I expect no one else to understand it nor to think or expect them to follow or agree with it.

 

[fangjian]

Another thing to do if the blows do not cause pain (or enough pain) and the fighter is just letting blows hit them, is to make a punishment for getting hit. Like, if you get struck, you owe 50 pushups before you leave the training hall or if struck, you have to clean the school bathroom. This will make you a bit more aware, and you will take each incoming blow very seriously.