Defensive approach vs. offensive approach

JowGaWolf

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Here's my viewpoint: the best defense is a good offense. You should always have an offensive mindset towards fighting, if you think defensively you are 2 steps behind your attacker.
Not always true. Say you aren't good at wrestling and you try to dominate your opponent with striking, not knowing that they are a BJJ practitioners. Your "good offense" has now gotten you in trouble because you didn't take the time to analyze the situation.

I'm a striker and the opposite is true for me. The best defense is a good defense. If I can defend against any grappling attempts then I can apply my striking offense at will. But my offense is only viable if my defense is strong.

I used to spar with brawlers who said the same as you do about an offense. They were my easiest opponents because I knew they were 100 percent committed to the offense. I didn't have to worry about them faking me out because they were always on the attack. I didn't have to worry about them luring into a trap because they were always on the attack. I've also sparred against guys who I didn't know if they were trying to lure me in, defend or attack, and they were my and still are my biggest challenge when it comes to sparring.

The only real advantage that I have with those types is that my defense is good enough for me to analyze their game plan and to determine the most dangerous movements that I need to be most concerned with.
 

Flying Crane

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When people bring legal issue into MA discussion, it's difficult to discuss certain strategy after that.
Well, legal issues are part of the reality in which we live. Maybe they need to be part of the consideration. If the recognition of legal issues makes it difficult to continue with a certain discussion, that is telling you something.
For example, those 2 guys did in the following video is 100% illegal. Should they be thrown into jail?

When someone trains MA and uses in the battlefield, he will need to attack, attack, and attack.

These two guys are training, not fighting, so what they are doing is not illegal. Fighting on a battlefield is subject to a different set of laws and ethics. That is a different discussion.
 

Holmejr

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For a while, I thought I was the only one who has this attitude. Glad to hear some agreement here.

When people bring legal issue into MA discussion, it's difficult to discuss certain strategy after that.

For example, those 2 guys did in the following video is 100% illegal. Should they be thrown into jail?

When someone trains MA and uses in the battlefield, he will need to attack, attack, and attack.

What happened to the upward slash or chop or whatever hes doing? Lol.
But I agree about attacking in the battlefield (war, street crime,etc.)
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Well, legal issues are part of the reality in which we live. Maybe they need to be part of the consideration. If the recognition of legal issues makes it difficult to continue with a certain discussion, that is telling you something.
Fight includes many different forms:

- sparring.
- friendly challenge.
- unfriendly challenge.
- tournament.
- street fight.
- body guard service.
- police task.
- battlefield.

When you train MA, you don't know under what condition that you are going to use it. You can't think about legal issue when you train.

One day when alien land on earth, you have to fight for the human civilization, it also won't make any sense to bring legal issue into it. :)
 
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Tigerwarrior

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Not always true. Say you aren't good at wrestling and you try to dominate your opponent with striking, not knowing that they are a BJJ practitioners. Your "good offense" has now gotten you in trouble because you didn't take the time to analyze the situation.

I'm a striker and the opposite is true for me. The best defense is a good defense. If I can defend against any grappling attempts then I can apply my striking offense at will. But my offense is only viable if my defense is strong.

I used to spar with brawlers who said the same as you do about an offense. They were my easiest opponents because I knew they were 100 percent committed to the offense. I didn't have to worry about them faking me out because they were always on the attack. I didn't have to worry about them luring into a trap because they were always on the attack. I've also sparred against guys who I didn't know if they were trying to lure me in, defend or attack, and they were my and still are my biggest challenge when it comes to sparring.

The only real advantage that I have with those types is that my defense is good enough for me to analyze their game plan and to determine the most dangerous movements that I need to be most concerned with.
I respect you're opinion even though we have different views. I just want to say why I said what I said. You are correct in terms of a duel of 1v1. If you both square up and get into stance and make it like a boxing or mma match then you are correct. My view of a fight is different my view is I'm not trying to go 3 rounds with someone or spar or go back and forth. My view is I need to end it as quickly and efficiently as possible. I can't afford to go on the defense in a serious encounter. If I was in a ring I would but on the street I refuse to. I don't want a back and forth exchange, it's my turn the whole time, I need to incapacitate my assailant and not give him the chance to hurt me. He might be a better boxer, kickboxer, mma fighter etc but my goal is to never give him the chance or opportunity to prove it. This is different than most people's view and psychology of fighting, but this is my mindset and what I need. I respect you very much and you are a true martial artist. We just view this topic differently. I agree with you almost 100% of the time on everything else. But this is just my opinion and I'm not preaching or selling the gospel. Everyone is free to have their own view.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I need to incapacitate my assailant and not give him the chance to hurt me. He might be a better boxer, kickboxer, mma fighter etc but my goal is to never give him the chance or opportunity to prove it.
That's exactly how I feel too. One time I deal with a Taiji guy. Instead of playing push hand with him, I start with dragging him in circle. The reason is simple. I have spent a lot of training time in this strategy. I'm pretty sure that my Taiji opponent has less experience in this area than I do. I want to lead my Taiji opponent into an area that I am more familiar with than he does.

In order to apply my strategy, I have to use the offensive approach. I don't care who my opponent is, the moment that I can drag him in circle, I feel safe.

 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Your "good offense" has now gotten you in trouble because you didn't take the time to analyze the situation.
One time a wrestler challenged me. After we have agreed that kick/punch were allowed, I started to throw fast punches combo toward his head. After about 3 or 4 of my punches landed on his head, he didn't want to continue any more. He might be a better wrestler than I was. But I didn't give him any chance to prove it.

Sorry about the bragging. One day when you get old, memory is the only thing that left. QAQ
 

Flying Crane

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Fight includes many different forms:

- sparring.
- friendly challenge.
- unfriendly challenge.
- tournament.
- street fight.
- body guard service.
- police task.
- battlefield.

When you train MA, you don't know under what condition that you are going to use it. You can't think about legal issue when you train.

One day when alien land on earth, you have to fight for the human civilization, it also won't make any sense to bring legal issue into it. :)
You really do need to think about legal issues when you train. You cannot let that paralyze you with indecision if you need to defend yourself, but you should have some recognition of the issues and how your action may or may not put you into legal and criminal risk. If it is part of the discussion in the context of training, it isnt difficult.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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You really do need to think about legal issues when you train.
How? When you

- punch on your heavy bag, do you consider that you may punch too hard that can hurt your opponent?
- swing your sword, do you consider that your sword may chop your opponent's head off?
- ...

One reason that I like about the throwing art is:

A: Did you kill him?
B: Dear judge, he and I got into some arguments. His body and my body got tangled together. We both fell down. His head hit on the hard ground. His death was an accident. I'm complete innocent.
 
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Flying Crane

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How? When you

- punch on your heavy bag, do you consider that you may punch too hard that can hurt your opponent,
- swing your sword, do you consider that your sword may chop your opponent's head off,
- ...

and give you some legal problem?

This is one reason that I like about the throwing art.

A: Did you kill him?
B: Dear judge, he and I got into some arguments. His body and my body got tangled together. We both fell down. His head hit on the hard ground. His death is an accident. I'm complete innocent.
It is not difficult to understand: you have a right to defend yourself, but there are limits on those rights before you become the aggressor, when you could be criminally prosecuted. So you consider how your actions, in context, place you within those limits. No action exists in a vacuum. Context matters.
 

JowGaWolf

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My view of a fight is different my view is I'm not trying to go 3 rounds with someone or spar or go back and forth.
My approach to street fighting is simple. Know what you are getting into before you fight. Scan the danger then make a decision if the fight is worth it. If you aren't able to scan. Then bust off some aggressive strikes or escape a take down then create distance. What did Sun Tzu say about knowing your enemy? There have been a lot of people who have been stabbed because they thought they were going to finish it quickly all because they didn't know the other person had a weapon.

"Never give someone the chance to prove they are better at a fighting skill than you." No such thing. If they are better at fighting than you, then you won't be able to overcome that. A lot of traditional kung gu guys thought they could do that against BJJ and failed.

It would be like me saying that I'm going to overwhelm Mike Tyson so that he doesn't have a chance to use his boxing skills. I understand the concept of wanting the fight to be short but I have also seen that plan fail without doubt when that person was outskilled from the beginning.

Then there's the counter fighters who do better when someone is attacking. a counter fighter. I'm one of those people so trying to end a fight quickly against me is where I'm most comfortable. I do better when someone comes at me. This is why I like brawlers. There's no caution in their attempt to dominating me with force. Brawlers don't try to mislead or lure. They often have a straight forward mindset to fighting which keeps it simple for me, in terms of what I have to analyze on the fly.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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My approach to street fighting is simple. Know what you are getting into before you fight.
In this thread, maybe we are talking about:

- sparring,
- friendly challenge,
- unfriendly challenge,
- tournament.

Maybe we are not just talking about street fight. The reason is simple. This way, we don't have to consider legal issue, firearm, and knife fighting in our discussion. You may have sparred 10,000 rounds in your life. How many times do you have in street fight?

What MA skill can you use to defend against this? None! So why do we want to talk about it? :)

anti_tank.jpg
 
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JowGaWolf

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In this thread, maybe we are talking about:

- sparring,
- friendly challenge,
- unfriendly challenge,
- tournament.

Maybe we are not just talking about street fight. The reason is simple. This way, we don't have to consider legal issue, firearm, and knife fighting in our discussion. You may have sparred 10,000 rounds in your life. How many times do you have in street fight?

What MA skill can you use to defend against this? None! So why do we want to talk about it? :)

View attachment 29763
I responded with weapons because there seems to be an assumption that making a fight short can only be done by going in with full aggressive attacks. There is an assumption here that the defensive game only applies to sports. What I mentioned is my post applies to both sport and street fight. So I gave examples of it.
 

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The difference can be whether you wait for your opportunity, or you try to create your opportunity.

So, if you use a hard block to hurt your opponent's punching arm is still a defensive approach.

In plain English, whether you wait for your girlfriend to call you, or you call your girlfriend.
So, just punch everyone, rather than waiting to be attacked?
 

Gerry Seymour

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May be the simple question can be asked as:

When you and your opponent are on guard, do you

1. wait for your opponent to punch you? or
2. try to open your opponent's guard and punch him?

Is 1:2 = 50%:50%, or 30%:70%, or 70%:30%?

Do you train how to throw more? Or do you train how to counter a throw more?

How to throw:


How to counter a throw:

If DB will allow me to paraphrase: yes.
 

Gerry Seymour

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In the throwing art, there is a set of "lazy person throwing skill" that include:

1. shin bite - you don't need to carry any of your opponent's body weight.
2. single leg - when you have obtained a grip on your opponent, you just wait for him to attack. When your opponent moves in, you grab his leg. This takes no effort at all. This is 100% defense skill.
3. ...
I disagree that a proper single-leg takes no energy at all. If hes trying to stop me, it will take energy. Less if I outclass him enough or get the opening really nicely, but still.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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So, just punch everyone, rather than waiting to be attacked?
In sparring, challenge fight, or tournament, I will attack first without waiting.

One time before I started my class, a guy walked into my class, bowed to me, and asked if he could spar with him (when a stranger wants to fight you in front of your students, that's a challenge fight). I said, "OK". I jumped in and took him down. I then turned around and started my class. My teacher was with me that day. My teacher said, "You didn't give that person a chance to be ready." I said, "Why should I? He challenged me, and I said OK." :)

In street fight, I have explained in the other thread clearly. If my opponent attacks me the

- 1st time, I'll jump back (or play 100% defense).
- 2nd time, I'll still jump back (or play 100% defense).
- 3rd time, I'll attack him back.

The reasons that I didn't counter punch back when my opponent attack me the 1st time and the 2nd time are:

- I hope he will stop attacking me.
- I don't want to fall into his trap (set up).
- I want to study him.
- I want to test my defense skill.
- I'm not sure I want to accept that fight (I don't hate him enough to hurt him and cause legal issue for myself).
- ...

I do believe this is the best strategy to deal with a street fight.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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In sparring, challenge fight, or tournament, I will attack first without waiting.

One time before I started my class, a guy walked into my class, bowed to me, and asked if he could spar with him (in front of all my students). I said, "OK". I jumped in, and took him down. I then turned around and started my class. My teacher was with me that day. My teacher said, "You didn't give that person a chance to be ready." I said, "Why should I? He challenged me, and I said OK."

In street fight, I have explained in the other thread clearly. If my opponent attacks me the

- 1st time, I'll jump back (or play 100% defense).
- 2nd time, I'll still jump back (or play 100% defense).
- 3rd time, I'll attack him back.

The reasons that I didn't counter punch back when my opponent attack me the 1st time and the 2nd time are:

- I hope he will stop attacking me.
- I don't want to fall into his trap (set up).
- I want to study him.
- I want to test my defense skill.
- I'm not sure I want to accept that fight (I don't hate him enough to hurt him and cause legal issue for myself).
- ...
I dont agree with either of those positions as being as absolute as you say them here.

For instance, in sparring, I might play defense to practice my defense, or to see what their offensive approach is, or to wait for a situation that challenges me to use a specific technique, or any number of other reasons. Or I might immediately go on the offensive for a similar number of reasons.
 

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