WC/WT/VT and Pekiti Tersia

[wckf92]

This line of comments and questioning recently came up on another thread that was beginning to show signs of 'drifting'... So, figured I'd start another one.
Some members here train other arts/systems besides 'chun.

So, let's discuss what Danny and LFG/Guy / Geezer are talking about.

Any discussion on these two arts? Similarities? Usefulness against or with a blade? etc?

 

[KPM]

If you know the Pekiti "passing drill".....do this using both arms at the same time and you are essentially doing the Gan/Jum motion side to side!

Couldn't find a great example of what I'm talking about on youtube, but this is close:

Similarly, Marc Denny of Dog Brother's fame did a knife defense video and unveiled a super secret technique he calls "the dog catcher." If you watch the video, this is just a Wing Chun Gan/Jum! He based this on the passing drill from Pekiti by just adding the other arm.

 

[geezer]

One thing about a lot of FMA drills... they have more steps and seem to chase hands as compared to my WC/VT. Some of this may be due to range, and also to the fact that the nearest limb is a target and not just an obstruction when you are holding a blade.

Regardless, the FMA I'm pursuing now is more direct, perhaps less like WC in appearance, but perhaps more like it in the way it attacks center.

And for what it's worth, if somebody really wants to stick or cut you, I have little confidence in palisut or passing drills. It's too easy to cut the hand that tries to make the pass. WCers -- think tut-sau (freeing-hand).

 

[KPM]

[One thing about a lot of FMA drills... they have more steps and seem to chase hands as compared to my WC/VT. Some of this may be due to range, and also to the fact that the nearest limb is a target and not just an obstruction when you are holding a blade.

---This is true. I agree that the reason, at least for the older FMAs, is that they are so weapon-centric that it just makes sense that everything is structured around controlling the opponent's weapon. I think some of the more recent "modernized" FMAs put more emphasis on countering directly. Hence, with an eye towards efficiency, some of the "modernized" FMAs tend to have more overlap with Wing Chun.


And for what it's worth, if somebody really wants to stick or cut you, I have little confidence in palisut or passing drills. It's too easy to cut the hand that tries to make the pass.

---True again! Against someone that is actually good with a knife you are in deep Shiza no matter what you do if you don't have a weapon yourself! Fortunately the typical street thug is not a trained knife-fighter!

 

[Danny T]

In Pekiti the Knife Tapping, Passing, Locking, and Scissoring drills are just that Drills.
Drills are not fighting. They are use to develop attributes and responses.
The Knife Tapping & Passing drills are a cohesion between techniques when linked with strikes, takedowns, locks, evasion and escapes. The practitioner learns to engage, redirect, and pass the attack and so may appear it is about passing. Once one knows and understands intercepting and passing they learn to attack to stun or disable the attacker while intercepting (engaging) redirecting, and passing. What allows the pass is the stunning or disabling attack. We don’t pass for the sake of passing.
The other drills; locking & scissoring are what to do with the weapon arm ‘after’ stunning the attacker or when the weapon arm is engage prior to attacking the core.
As Tuhon McGrath is constantly stressing as to what makes the passing and locking work is “Knock the Dude Out”!

 

[guy b.]

This line of comments and questioning recently came up on another thread that was beginning to show signs of 'drifting'... So, figured I'd start another one.
Some members here train other arts/systems besides 'chun.

So, let's discuss what Danny and LFG/Guy / Geezer are talking about.

Any discussion on these two arts? Similarities? Usefulness against or with a blade? etc?

Personally I would feel much more confident grappling against a knife than using VT unarmed. I would want to stop the guy and the knife moving as quickly as I could and break the arm badly as soon as I could. In my experience this kind of jiu jitsu approach works quite well against armed assailants (not knives) because they put everything into the weapon and tend to neglect protecting the arm and balance. Risk is in entering and getting the arm, but if you are single minded can be done. I think trying to keep a knife off you while hitting to ko is incredibly risky.

If I had knife/knives of my own then of course I would be using BJD strategies because that is the only blade idea I know.

 

[dudewingchun]

I dont think with any amount of training I would be able to defend myself properly against knife attacks. A maniac is just going to stab and slash all over the place in a spaz of directions , not keen on my forearms getting sliced to pieces or someone might have been scoping you out then just stab you without you realising until its in and out and your bleeding. Parkour is prob the best knife defence... just gtfo of there.

 

[Danny T]

If it comes to a bladed attack it will most likely be sudden and likely extremely violent. Get Away, 'if' possible. ESCAPE. Immediately.
If you are stabbed or slashed and you can ESCAPE Do it.
IF you are in a position that you have to stay or have to fight until you can get away. Evade and strike with as much aggression you can muster and create distance, get something between you and the attacker. Keep moving, changing your angles. If you cannot get away after striking, then immediately work for control of the weapon arm. Don't get into a sparring match or a duel. Footwork, aggressive striking, and weapon arm control. Do not get into a ground grappling match if possible. There are numerous wc positions and controls that can work well but do so only if that is your only option.

 

[guy b.]

If you cannot get away after striking, then immediately work for control of the weapon arm. Don't get into a sparring match or a duel. Footwork, aggressive striking, and weapon arm control. Do not get into a ground grappling match if possible. There are numerous wc positions and controls that can work well but do so only if that is your only option.

Much easier to control the weapon arm on the ground if you train that way. Everyone knows some way of moving standing up, most have no clue how to move on the ground. To me standing grappling a weapon arm is still quite a roll of the dice vs doing it on the ground.

 

[Danny T]

Much easier to control the weapon arm on the ground if you train that way. Everyone knows some way of moving standing up, most have no clue how to move on the ground. To me standing grappling a weapon arm is still quite a roll of the dice vs doing it on the ground.

Key word 'If'. And I agreed.
How many grapplers train grappling against a knife attack. Go to most any grappling class and drop a training knife on the ground and tell them use on their opponent. It is amazing how quickly those grappling skills go away and how badly the person gets slashed and stabbed.
Can it be good yes it can. But it has to be trained for it.

 

[geezer]

Much easier to control the weapon arm on the ground if you train that way. Everyone knows some way of moving standing up, most have no clue how to move on the ground. To me standing grappling a weapon arm is still quite a roll of the dice vs doing it on the ground.

I see your point (and have seen similar approaches in Dog Brothers videos) but, assuming you are attacked standing up, how do you get him to the ground unless you have some degree of control of the weapon first?

My first instinct is run to away, or if I can't, then to grab something as an improvised weapon, especially something that gives me a distance advantage like a pool cue or broom handle, or something that will shield me like a briefcase, jacket, or better yet a chair or stool. You can do a lot with a chair or stool. Maybe that's why circus "lion tamers" used them. A whip would be nice too! Don't find too many laying around though....

 

[guy b.]

Key word 'If'. And I agreed.
How many grapplers train grappling against a knife attack. Go to most any grappling class and drop a training knife on the ground and tell them use on their opponent. It is amazing how quickly those grappling skills go away and how badly the person gets slashed and stabbed.
Can it be good yes it can. But it has to be trained for it.

You are telling grapplers to use a knife against grapplers. Of course the one with the knife wins.

Go to any knife arts training venue with an electric cattle prod and see much worse. Very easy to pull off complex blocking trapping and striking movements when fear is absent. Not so easy when you fear being electrocuted badly and shitting yourself in front of the class.

 

[guy b.]

I see your point (and have seen similar approaches in Dog Brothers videos) but, assuming you are attacked standing up, how do you get him to the ground unless you have some degree of control of the weapon first?

My first instinct is run to away, or if I can't, then to grab something as an improvised weapon, especially something that gives me a distance advantage like a pool cue or broom handle, or something that will shield me like a briefcase, jacket, or better yet a chair or stool. You can do a lot with a chair or stool. Maybe that's why circus "lion tamers" used them. A whip would be nice too! Don't find too many laying around though....

Yes run. Yes grab something.

I think Danny wanted to focus on the eventuality where you are cornered and have to fight a person with a knife using only your bare hands.

 

[guy b.]

assuming you are attacked standing up, how do you get him to the ground unless you have some degree of control of the weapon first?

Grab cloth first and work grips to prevent them stabbing you, then trip them in a safe way that allows you to gain top position while maintaining arm control. Then break their arm; they will drop the knife anyway but you might as well hurt them into the bargain. A naked knife wielding assailant is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[geezer]

Grab cloth first...

Cloth? Clothes? I'm a little confused. Do you mean sleeves? Sounds like a seasonal tactic at best. Here in Arizona, most people wear light, short-sleeved T-shirts or polo shirts pretty much year round. Maybe a light jacket in the morning on cold December or January days, or businessmen and lawyers inside their air-conditioned offices.

 

[KPM]

Grabbing a sleeve rather than the arm itself is sure way to get cut or stabbed! Trying to trip or drag someone to the ground is a good way to land on the point of the knife. Rolling around on the ground against someone with a knife in hand is a bad idea. Better to stay on your feet so you can create distance and RUN at the first opportunity! Or put an obstacle between you and the guy with a knife.

 

[geezer]

Grabbing a sleeve rather than the arm itself is sure way to get cut or stabbed! Trying to trip or drag someone to the ground is a good way to land on the point of the knife. Rolling around on the ground against someone with a knife in hand is a bad idea. Better to stay on your feet so you can create distance and RUN at the first opportunity! Or put an obstacle between you and the guy with a knife.

Well, if you can't run, ...maybe you have to protect someone else? ...or whatever, ...you have to get control of the knife, or the knife wielding arm, and momentarily stop the lethal damage it can cause. That is step one. Then other possibilities emerge.

The problem I have with most knife demos I've seen is that they underestimate how insanely hard step one is to accomplish. They gloss over it almost as if it were a foregone conclusion, and then go on to dazzle and distract with steps two, three, four, and beyond.

Here's a pretty typical example. I'm not slamming this guy. I just don't think it's that easy to grab a and hold a knife wielded by a committed attacker. And if you can't do that, what use is all the rest?

BTW this skeptical attitude has probably cost me a few students over the years. But at least the few I do have won't do something stupid that they learned from me!

 

[Blindside]

The knife tapping/passing drill is just a drill, designed to train a particular motion. By itself it isn't a solution to the issue. I really like Hertao's explanation of the drill here and jibs with how I was taught.

And for shits and giggles, my training group "dying" frequently and often trying to pressure test some of this stuff.

 

[Danny T]

Wow, Hertao (David Erath) was one of my students in Wing Chun and Pekiti. Moved to Austria back around 2006. Very intellectual and pressure tests all of his material. Nice find Blindside.

 

[Blindside]

Wow, Hertao (David Erath) was one of my students in Wing Chun and Pekiti. Moved to Austria back around 2006. Very intellectual and pressure tests all of his material. Nice find Blindside.

I actually always wondered if you guys were linked, there can't be that many WC/PTK/other stuff guys in Louisiana.