What is "good" WC/WT

[hunt1]

Blindsage - I understand now. it is hard to say everything in a post.

My point is that talk of hand tech's or strategies like attack along the center line etc. Is all just superficial and does not go to the question of what is good or bad wc/wt.

The question often becomes why doens't wc look like wc when you see a wc player fight/spar a boxer etc. The reason is they are not really doing wing chun they are just learning the surface motions which leads them to adopt boxing methods etc when sparring skilled opponents.

For example wing chun is really able to be self taught if you learn good basics and follow the Kuit(fist sayings). Number one clue to real wing chun is " Wing Chun was invented by a woman." Everyone looks at this as some creation myth and misses that it is the key to understanding the whole system.

How does a woman fight? Where is her power? Can she match a mans upper body speed and strength? The answer is no. A woman uses her lower body. A woman must use her lower body to deal with a man in any athletic activity. This the key to good wing chun starts her. Learning how to utilize the lower body ; sink, swallow, float, spit, all come from the lower body.

Learning how to use the lower body,how to bring the energy up through the spine is the basic ground work of good wing chun. However you will have to search long and hard for a clip on you tube that shows someone doing this even in slow practice let alone at full speed and power. I doubt you will find many wc/wt sifu's that can do this and this is wing chun 101

The next basic is punch comes from the heart but I doubt you will find many wing chun sifu's that can explain this either let alone perform it.

 

[geezer]

...Number one clue to real wing chun is " Wing Chun was invented by a woman." Everyone looks at this as some creation myth and misses that it is the key to understanding the whole system.

How does a woman fight? Where is her power? Can she match a mans upper body speed and strength? The answer is no. A woman uses her lower body. A woman must use her lower body to deal with a man in any athletic activity. This the key to good wing chun ...Learning how to use the lower body,how to bring the energy up through the spine is the basic ground work of good wing chun...

Hunt, I really have to agree with your take on the Yim Wing Chun story. Whether historically true or false is irrelevant to me. It's this lesson that matters. And as one who struggles with semi-crippled ankles, I find it a frustrating truth that good stance and steps are more important by far than fast and strong hand techniques alone!

Now, could you elaborate a bit more on the four basics: sink, swallow, float and spit. I've encountered these in other southern kung-fu systems, but my old Chinese WC/WT Sifu (who was a student of Yip Man) didn't discuss them.
Perhaps they are emphisized more in your lineage?

 

[Si-Je]

Center and centerline are not the same.

That may be so. I'm just still learning. Now with a different teacher alot all at once. lol!
But, I keep my center on you but do not stay "trapped" in your centerline.

I love what you said earlier about it being a woman's art, so to speak. but one thing I do disagree. A woman is faster than an man, only at least potientially if she relaxes and doesn't use strength to "make" her faster. That's one thing we have going for us, and the lower center of gravity. yes.

But, i've met men that can drop that center way low. With some practice easily lower than me. (and I've had a kid already! lol!) Impressive.!

But there's more to the "girl" way of fighting than all that. It's a "midset", more of a reflex response to power being over you.
"bend but don't yeild, be firm but not soft."
And when that doesn't work, move around it, or over or under it.

Always keeping your centerline on the target.

 

[hunt1]

Geezer I will try but its not something you can do with the Leung Ting method at least I have never met or seen a tape of any LT method students able to do it. It's the reason Sergio started learning with Andreas.( Then the move to Andreas's teacher Cheng Kwong) His methods were totally ineffective against Andreas even though Andreas was relaxed and taking it easy on him.

Yip Man did teach it but only to those that really asked about it. Yip Chun taught or used to teach the 12 energies in chi sau and Tsui Seung Tin teaches the 4 although he uses different terms.

While some styles have 8 ,12 or 18 methods or energies all have the core 4 body methods sink float swallow spit. In SLT they are shown in the second section after the hammer palms and the double man sau to the side come to center and go down with the double Jums. this is followed by the tok sau's=float tok is the basic concept of how to float or raise up incoming hard energy when the person has a weak stance or is up in their stance. Next are the double Jut's=swallow.Incoming energy is hard and joints are locked or energy is up in shoulders. You swallow the energy by brings the energy into and down thus again uprooting and taking control of the center of gravity. Next are the bui's=spit again break incoming energy with a forward up energy. last double gum=sink . The first two are soft and guiding. the person isn't even aware whats happening until its done the second two are more sudden and energetic. These are not hard and fast rules just general idea's.

The key and reason you don't see them in Lt or many other wing chun styles is because to perform them you must engage and use the lower body. Styles that teach and rely on connected locked waist do not engage the lower body in the proper fashion . Also it cant be done with the LT slant body posture

 

[hunt1]

Sorry one more thing i forgot to add. The motions aren't hard and fast rules. Many of the 12 have an overlap in form and function. Yip Man made a change that obsurced the 12 a bit. He separated the fist series of palms into 2 seperate down palms.( may have been someone else it the seperate palms down to the side show up consistently in Ip Man's style. Originally the down palms were one motion. Down to the side back and forward. Both hands at same time. This section of the first form gives you the 12 energies. There are 12 motions in this section.
These are more concepts than anything else for example tan can swallow. The double jam is showing Chit or slice but it could also be intercept . The double man sau is showing swing but could also be slice , intercept or bridge or all 4 at once depending on speed and intent. one motion can do more than one thing ie. a punch also can be a block or intercept or join etc.

 

[Si-Je]

What is this "12 energies of chi sau?" I've never heard this term before, could you explain a bit more on this?

My teacher does'nt teach chi sau much or emphasizes it at all. They do a different kind of drill which honestly I'm liking much better simply because you don't "reset" to chi sau position after completing a move or striking or getting through the opponent. Even when your arms are "trapped" or your body is turned and your struck you continue the drill/practice from that position.

He rolled hands with me a bit (just rolling and feeling my forward intent and structure in chi sau) and I was really dismayed to find that my energy is too "circular" because of the very nature of the "rolling" in chi sau. It's been a long time (almost 2 years) since I've done any chi sau at all, but my basics shouldn't be that bad.

I'm discovering that what was taught me was too much of a "pellmell" bit and peices of this WC and that WT in it. And that many core concepts where just not taught to me at all. Yet, some I did figure out by painful trial and error and paying attention to what my female body wanted to do in a situation and following that nature.

This teacher focuses more on immediate and spontaneous action and response than a set formula in chi sau. Which, I thought I was training this way, we were a bit I guess. But not as spontaneous as I thought, and we stopped too much between techniques to reset to chi sau position.

p.s. the WC uppercut that old teacher used on all of us as an end all to be all in chi sau (which it always got through because he wouldn't show us how to deflect it close in) has been answered by this teacher. Much to my relief. That simple, silly uppercut has been frustrating me for a couple of years now. And the simple defense to stop chainpunching that this guy showed me just flabbergasted me. So simple. no bong sau needed. And it just collapses the chainpunching right away. Too neat!

 

[Nabakatsu]

Si-Je your making em so jealous! I really do feel like a si-dai, I guess I am.. but still! roarrrr, I wish I could train a bunch of good diff sifus >.<"

 

[geezer]

Speaking of what is "good" and "bad" Wing Chun, there's a difference between what is good in an absolute sense and what works for each individual.

For example, my old Chinese sifu believed that his kung-fu was the best. If you were successful in mastering it, you would be better than all the rest.

Most other high level sifus have similar feelings. So how could you prove whose kung-fu was actually superior. Suppose, for example, that you could gather a large number of gifted ahtletes and randomly assign 100 to each Sifu. Have each group train full time for five years, and then have them all fight with no rules. The Sifu with the most number of surviving students would have the best kung-fu, right? And they'd all get rich of the film residuals.

But aside from providing a terrifically gory spectacle, would even such an extreme display actually prove anything? It still would only show what worked the best on the average with a bunch of typical athletes. But what works the best for an older man, or a young girl? Or a fat man, a smart man...or one who isn't so intellectually inclined? Ultimately, what works for you might not work so well for me.

I don't believe there is any one superior set of concepts, structure or techniques that is universally "the best" for everyone. I could not physically master all techniques my sifu used so effectively. So his kung fu, though very good, was not a perfect fit for me. The fault is not with his kung-fu, but neither is the fault all mine. It's just the way life is. We have to adapt and adjust and find what is best for us. In other words, if I get a high rate of success doing something that is "wrong", but a lower rate of success on what is "right", I will try to do the "right" technique based on trust in my instructor and knowing that eventually the "right" way will take me further... But if after years of training, it still doesn't work for me, should I keep attempting it, or use what does work the best for me?

 

[yak sao]

What I like about WT is the built in redundancy.

For instance, VS a roundhouse kick, the ideal thing may be to step in and shut him down before the kick ever happens. But if the terrain is bad, or you are slow to respond or have an injury that prevents an explosive entry, or any number of other things ,then the ideal "technique" is not the best one for that particular case.
So then you have plan B, and so on, all the way down to what we refer toas the "Oh crap!" response.

Like Geezer said, some people, like LT , are very gifted, and are able to utilize the system at its best. Some of us are mere mortals and have to do what works best for us.

 

[hunt1]

I'll give you our 18 energies the 12 are in the 18. Spit,swallow,raise.sink,touch,swing,adhere,grasp,leak,press,thrust,vibrate,spiral,roll,throw,straight,join,follow.
These energies are also methods. All are trained with in chi sao.

These are many methods of chi sao. The poon sau rolling is only one type. There are chi sau methods to teach everything from bridging to grappling and throwing. The purpose of chi sao is to remove your brain from your actions by teaching you new reflexes. For example puch the wrist the elbow comes up push elbow wrist comes up. You start not being able to do it, then you recognize the energy on the wrist and you think ah bring my elbow up and then one day your elbow just comes up with no thought or recognition on your part. The reaction is now a reflex.

Hitting is the most unimportant part of chi sao however it is what most get caught up in.

Another reason for chi sau training is that it teaches one to be comfortable at the most uncomfortable distance.

 

[Poor Uke]

For example puch the wrist the elbow comes up push elbow wrist comes up. You start not being able to do it, then you recognize the energy on the wrist and you think ah bring my elbow up and then one day your elbow just comes up with no thought or recognition on your part. The reaction is now a reflex.

Just on a side note. I find nowadays that that particular reflex (bong sau) to be more of a burden as it has on a number of occasions got me into trouble by giving my opponent an easy bit of leverage...anyhoo vack to the thread

 

[geezer]

Just on a side note. I find nowadays that that particular reflex (bong sau) to be more of a burden as it has on a number of occasions got me into trouble by giving my opponent an easy bit of leverage...anyhoo vack to the thread

Some folks just love bong sau, and others really love kwun-sau (simultaneous bong and tan sau with a turn) since it is a really "broad spectrum" or multi-purpose defensive move. I tend to agree with Uke though. Since these moves are defensive, they give your opponent a second chance. And with bong that could be a nasty grapple. For self-defense my favorite moves are directly offensive (a straight punch, kick, etc.), or at least simultaneous offense and defense (tan-da, etc.).

 

[yak sao]

Some folks just love bong sau, and others really love kwun-sau (simultaneous bong and tan sau with a turn) since it is a really "broad spectrum" or multi-purpose defensive move. I tend to agree with Uke though. Since these moves are defensive, they give your opponent a second chance. And with bong that could be a nasty grapple. For self-defense my favorite moves are directly offensive (a straight punch, kick, etc.), or at least simultaneous offense and defense (tan-da, etc.).

My si-fu likes to say that bong sau is half a technique; the first part being the "deforming" into the wing structure, the second half being where it springs out

 

[geezer]

I'll give you our 18 energies the 12 are in the 18. Spit,swallow,raise.sink,touch,swing,adhere,grasp,leak,press,thrust,vibrate,spiral,roll,throw,straight,join,follow.
These energies are also methods. All are trained with in chi sao.

I would bet that top level martial artists in other branches of WC, and indeed in quite a few other martial arts, exploit many of these "energies" by whatever names they use. But I find so many concepts a bit overwhelming. In the Wing Chun I train, it all really boils down to one energy, "springy force". That is the ability to make your whole body move like a spring or piece of bamboo. Just this energy alone is still more than I can master!

 

[geezer]

My si-fu likes to say that bong sau is half a technique; the first part being the "deforming" into the wing structure, the second half being where it springs out

That's the way I was taught bong-sau. Your arm meets a stronger force, is bent like a spring, and then snaps back!

The same thing happens with your body and stance. If your opponent charges you, his force turns you aside, then you spring back to hit him, when he falls back, you spring forward and follow, and hit, hit, hit!

"Stay with what comes, follow the retreat and thrust (spring) forward when the hand is freed." You can translate this famous kuit many ways, but for us it always boils down to "Become like a spring".

 

[hunt1]

Poor Uke I understand. There are different ways to do bong sau depending on your use of body structure. Bong can be very aggressive and works great for jamming forward. Its a key usage for short people to use against tall folks. Bong should displace as it moves forward and transforms into an attack. Then again it often comes out as an "oh Hell!" move.

 

[hunt1]

Geezer you are right they can be a bit overwhelming. I usually concentrate on the base 4 when teaching and back track on the others since they often overlap. For example working from simple rolling poon sau each method has 3 base chi sau attacks giving a base of 54 different chi sau attacks so when teaching chi sau folks learn the methods before they ever learn the names. Then the methods roll in when learning the other types of Chi sau that are not based on poon sau rolling.
So after a few years of training people can do all the methods without ever really knowing the names at all.

No doubt you can perform many if not all of them without even knowing it.

 

[Poor Uke]

Poor Uke I understand. There are different ways to do bong sau depending on your use of body structure. Bong can be very aggressive and works great for jamming forward. Its a key usage for short people to use against tall folks. Bong should displace as it moves forward and transforms into an attack. Then again it often comes out as an "oh Hell!" move.

I agree with the receptive nature of bong sau, I come from an Ip Ching lineage and he's a small bloke, there's no wey in hell he's gonna block with a bong sau.

My dislike comes from potentially giving away control of your arm by lifting the elbow.

 

[hunt1]

Got it. Yip Ching and yip Chun were both teachers of mine. I understand.

Here is a key that doesnt get explained. You shouldn't lift the elbow,spiral forward. Will make a huge difference. Of course the 'oh hell' raising up bong will still happen from time to time in a panic situation until you get the hang of spiral.

 

[Poor Uke]

To be honest I have always found bong sau to be a weak techique - leaves your opponent to many openings no matter how its done.

But saying that I have floored somebody with a bong-lap-fak sau combo (fak sau straight into the Adam's apple)