Violent Pacifism

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Welllp, guess I can get back to subverting democracy, putting florides in water

Damn Ruskie stop depleting my precious bodily fluids!!! :mad:
 
Originally posted by Kirk
When people use the first amendment to solely speak out
against everything the constitution represents, against the
government, any actions they do, and those executing the orders
given to them, it makes me, and apparently many others,
just plain disgusted.

??? Why else would anyone need those freedoms? Is there concern that the government might prohibit agreeing with govt. policies and praising elected politicians?
 
Originally posted by arnisador
??? Why else would anyone need those freedoms? Is there concern that the government might prohibit agreeing with govt. policies and praising elected politicians?

Disagreement is often used, ... abhorition, and a call for a new
government that doesn't allow for the first amendment isn't quite
as common.

Those seeking a Marxist/Communist/Nazi regime, are IMO, anti
American. Just because you desire to physically live on American
soil, doesn't make you pro American. If you seek to shred the
constitution, and replace it with a Marxist doctrine, a Communist
regime, a dictatorship, an oligarchy ... you're anti American. If
you say "not only do I hope the Iraqi's win, I hope they get to
drop some bombs on us" .. you're anti American.
 
Good to know. I'd always suspected that there was something un-American about Charles Lindbergh....
 
Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Good to know. I'd always suspected that there was something un-American about Charles Lindbergh....

You've been screaming for "facts" and this is all you present, huh?
 
Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Good to know. I'd always suspected that there was something un-American about Charles Lindbergh....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While visiting Germany, Charles was treated as an honored guest
by the Reich. He toured their aircraft facilities and was deeply
impressed by their state-of-the-art equipment and by
the "organized vitality," as Charles called it, of the German
people. He even considered moving to Berlin. In 1938, Hermann
Goering personally decorated Charles with the Service Cross of
the German Eagle, for his contributions to aviation. By 1938 the
Nazi agenda was no secret, but their philosophy seems not to
have disturbed Lindbergh at all. Americans back home, starting to
hear of Hitler's atrocities, were less sanguine. The sight of their
Golden Boy wearing a Nazi medal disturbed many.

The disturbance blossomed into hatred over the next few years.
Lindbergh returned home and publicly urged America not to enter
the war, warning that such a course would be foolhardy in light of
Germany's superior military prowess. There was no pressing
need to fight the Germans, he stated, since these European
skirmishes were "not wars in which our civilization is defending
itself against some Asiatic intruder." Rather, the German culture
was much like our own; we were all White inheritors of the great Western cultural tradition, weren't we? We shared with Germany
the imperative of creating "a Western wall of race and arms
which can hold back the infiltration of inferior blood," as he
wrote in the Reader's Digest.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm .. sounds pretty anti American to me.
 


The death-blow to Lindbergh's fame came in September 1941, when he made an infamous
speech on behalf of the America First Committee, an organization promoting neutrality
in the war. Speaking in Des Moines, Iowa, Lindbergh castigated the war-mongering
attitude of the British, President Roosevelt, and especially the Jews. In what
sounded like a veiled threat, Lindbergh announced that "Jews in this country should
be opposing [war] in every way, for they will be the first to feel its consequences."
He also denounced the Jews as the "greatest danger" to the United States, because of
their "large ownership and influece in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and
our government."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In so saying, Lindbergh re-activated all the moth-eaten stereotypes about Jews'
supposed control of society, none of which had any basis in fact, but all of which
had earlier been spoken in Germany. In fact, Lindbergh and his wife had been present
during Kristallnacht, the infamous "night of broken glass" when Nazis attacked
Jewish homes and businesses. Later apologists for Lindbergh's remarks have sometimes
claimed he was "naive," but this is a disingenuous claim. He had witnessed the
Nazi's actions; he knew what he was saying.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lindbergh did not seek any service in Europe. Nor, after the war, did he recant his
pro-Nazi statements. The furthest he would go was to assert that Hitler was an
immoral man who had abused his power. This "immoral abuse of power," somewhat vague
idea though it was, became the focus of Lindbergh's criticisms in post-war speeches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I take it he's one of your heroes?

Just because he has superb accomplishments as an aviator ...
doesn't make him pro American, nor a model American.
 
Kirk,

Do you believe in or take benefit(s) from a Union?


As for 1941 and the Isolationism, it was much more than CL who wanted to stay out of the war. Just Like 1914, many did not want to enter into the Great War going on in Europe.

In 1941, it took Pearl Harbor to move this county to war. In the Great War it took the sinking of some of our ships that were amking supply runs to England. So, I think it was much more tha just CL and his Isolationism. There was/is a history of it prior and after the dates you reference.


Good research though.
 
Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Kirk,

Do you believe in or take benefit(s) from a Union?


As for 1941 and the Isolationism, it was much more than CL who wanted to stay out of the war. Just Like 1914, many did not want to enter into the Great War going on in Europe.

In 1941, it took Pearl Harbor to move this county to war. In the Great War it took the sinking of some of our ships that were amking supply runs to England. So, I think it was much more tha just CL and his Isolationism. There was/is a history of it prior and after the dates you reference.


Good research though.

There's more than isolationism and not wanting to go to war in
my post though.
 
Originally posted by Elfan
Kirk could you cite your sources please.


Why? First off, many are making claims without backing them up
with sources. Secondly, those that are posting sources are
getting ridiculed for who thier sources are, so what's the point?
 
Originally posted by Kirk
Why? First off, many are making claims without backing them up
with sources. Secondly, those that are posting sources are
getting ridiculed for who thier sources are, so what's the point?

So I can check them silly and see how reputable and/or biased they are and see what other useful information they have, just as I would hope people would do with anything I posted. If I posted some something like "american's are baby killers wraa!!!" and cited (www.AMERICASUX.COM) I hope people would jump all over me for it.

From http://www.charleslindbergh.com/history/index.asp (which is rather pro-Lindbergh)

We see that he:

- made the first solo nonstop flight across the Atlantic Ocean

- visited the aircraft industries of France and German

- Lindbergh stopped his noninvolvement activity after Pearl Harbor

- flew 50 combat missions in WWII

Now having seen a very anti and pro view of Lindbergh we might check out something more even handed like http://www.acepilots.com/lindbergh.html and go from there.

From all this I might conclude something along the lines of "Charles Lindbergh was a war hero and amazing aviator but held strong negative opinions towards Jews and was vocal about them."

Anyway, this was your source, no?

Icharus Falls: Charles Lindbergh and the Rejection of Heroism by Ilana Nash, September 11, 1999
 
Originally posted by Elfan
So I can check them silly and see how reputable and/or biased they are and see what other useful information they have, just as I would hope people would do with anything I posted. If I posted some something like "american's are baby killers wraa!!!" and cited (www.AMERICASUX.COM) I hope people would jump all over me for it.

From http://www.charleslindbergh.com/history/index.asp (which is rather pro-Lindbergh)

We see that he:

- made the first solo nonstop flight across the Atlantic Ocean

- visited the aircraft industries of France and German

- Lindbergh stopped his noninvolvement activity after Pearl Harbor

- flew 50 combat missions in WWII

Now having seen a very anti and pro view of Lindbergh we might check out something more even handed like http://www.acepilots.com/lindbergh.html and go from there.

From all this I might conclude something along the lines of "Charles Lindbergh was a war hero and amazing aviator but held strong negative opinions towards Jews and was vocal about them."

Anyway, this was your source, no?

Icharus Falls: Charles Lindbergh and the Rejection of Heroism by Ilana Nash, September 11, 1999

Apologies brother, after so many heated discussions, I kind of
got on the defensive, and read your post with this harsh,
condesceding tone. That is where I got the info. Peace!
 
Originally posted by Kirk
There's more than isolationism and not wanting to go to war in
my post though.

True, your post does have much more, yet you and no one else picked up that the US policies in the past have mirrored those of many today in the current global situation. I was hoping others might comment on that. That is all.

Trying to add to the discussion, and maybe get some information, out of it.

Train Well Kirk :asian:
 
Originally posted by Rich Parsons
True, your post does have much more, yet you and no one else picked up that the US policies in the past have mirrored those of many today in the current global situation. I was hoping others might comment on that. That is all.

Trying to add to the discussion, and maybe get some information, out of it.

Train Well Kirk :asian:

Rich, since many have been taking offense to my posts, and
feeling attacked by me, I just gotta chime in and say that it wasn't
my attention in debating your post. Sorry if it seemed that way.
 
Originally posted by Kirk
Apologies brother, after so many heated discussions, I kind of
got on the defensive, and read your post with this harsh,
condesceding tone. That is where I got the info. Peace!

Heh, no worries man.

:asian:
 
I mentioned Lucky Lindy because I get damed tired of people who feel that they're qualified to decide who is and who isn't American enough.

Kirk is precisely correct about him: among other sources, I've been reading Samuel Fuller's autobiography--he was at the 1941 rally, where Lindbergh spoke in support of Hitler.

I might add, however, that Fuller then goes on to castigate the late and unlamented Sen. Joseph McCarthy for pretty much what you'd expect--being a right wing, repressive jerk (much like J. Edgar, but we all know about him and Clyde W. Toland, as much as we know about Roy Cohn) who found Commies under every bed and regrettably gained enough power to persecute Americaans for their traitorous exercises of free speech and the right to free political association.
And before anybody starts screaming about Fuller being a commierat himself, I recommend reading his book or seeing his movies, including, "The Steel Helmet," and, "The Big Red One." I also recommend reading about his military service, which included North Africa in 1942, Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944, and the invasion of Germany. Sorry I never got to meet the man.

This country has a long, proud tradition of citizens speaking their mind, even if the gov't doesn't like what they say. Funny how so many of the politicians who scream about that tradition the loudest turn out to be disgraces...Nixon, Agnew, etc., etc, the list just goes on...
 
WMD Chemical Agents found in Iraq. US GIs Exposed

Posted on Sun, Apr. 06, 2003
Troops, journalists undergo cleanup for nerve gas exposure
By TOM LASSETER
Knight Ridder Newspapers

ALBU MUHAWISH, Iraq - U.S. soldiers evacuated an Iraqi military compound on Sunday after tests by a mobile laboratory confirmed evidence of sarin nerve gas. More than a dozen soldiers of the Army's 101st Airborne Division had been sent earlier for chemical weapons decontamination after they exhibited symptoms of possible exposure to nerve agents.

The evacuation of dozens of soldiers Sunday night followed a day of tests for the nerve agent that came back positive, then negative. Additional tests Sunday night by an Army Fox mobile nuclear, biological and chemical detection laboratory confirmed the existence of sarin.

Sgt. Todd Ruggles, a biochemical expert attached to the 2nd Brigade of the 101st Airborne said, "I was right" that chemical agents Iraq has denied having were present.

In addition to the soldiers sent for decontamination, a Knight Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman and two Iraqi prisoners of war also were hosed down with water and bleach.

U.S. soldiers found the suspect chemicals at two sites: an agricultural warehouse containing 55-gallon chemical drums and a military compound, which soldiers had begun searching on Saturday. The soldiers also found hundreds of gas masks and chemical suits at the military complex, along with large numbers of mortar and artillery rounds.

Chemical tests for nerve agents in the warehouse came back positive for so-called G-Series nerve agents, which include sarin and tabun, both of which Iraq has been known to possess. More than a dozen infantry soldiers who guarded the military compound Saturday night came down with symptoms consistent with exposure to very low levels of nerve agent, including vomiting, dizziness and skin blotches.

A hand-held scanning device also indicated the soldiers had been exposed to a nerve agent. Two tests at the compound were negative, but further testing indicated sarin was present.

Sarin can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin and is considered one of the most feared but also the most volatile of the nerve agents, chemical weapons experts have said. A cloud of sarin can dissipate after several minutes or hours depending on wind and temperature.

The soldiers, journalists and prisoners of war who tested positive were isolated as everyone else evacuated the area. After about 45 minutes, the group was walked, single-file, down a road for about a city block to where two water trucks awaited them. The men stepped between the two trucks and were hosed down as they lathered themselves with a detergent containing bleach.

1st Lt. Elena Aravjo of the 63rd Chemical Company said she thought there might well be chemical weapons at the site. "We do think there's stuff in this compound and the other (agricultural warehouse) compound, but we think it's buried," she said. "I'm really suspicious of both of those compounds."

The suspicions, or at the very least concerns, were widespread. The 2nd Brigade's commander, Col. Joseph Anderson, toured the site on Sunday, as did Brig. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley, the assistant commander of the 101st Airborne for operations. Shortly after, the division commander, Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus, also visited the site.

The ranking officers made no official comment about suspected nerve agents. Troops not wearing chemical protection suits later reoccupied the military complex, while sections of the agricultural warehouse remained taped off.
 
Thank you Kirk for the post.

Additional tests Sunday night by an Army Fox mobile nuclear, biological and chemical detection laboratory confirmed the existence of sarin.

The Fox was one of my programs at General Dynamics, I only wish they could have found the stuff and marked it before the exposure? Yet, with the equipement available they should be able to determine the what and how much, pretty good.

My respects go out to our Fighting Men and Women :asian:
 
It doesn't seem to be clear/confirmed :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-8apr2003-13.htm

Suspected WMD site in Iraq turns out to contain pesticide

Suspected WMD site in Iraq turns out to contain pesticide
A facility near Baghdad that a US officer had said might finally be "smoking gun" evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons production turned out to contain pesticide, not sarin gas as feared.

A military intelligence officer for the US 101st Airborne Division's aviation brigade, Captain Adam Mastrianni, told AFP news agency that comprehensive tests determined the presence of the pesticide compounds.

Initial tests had reportedly detected traces of sarin - a powerful toxin that quickly affects the nervous system - after US soldiers guarding the facility near Hindiyah, 100 kilometres south of Baghdad, fell ill.

Captain Mastrianni said a "theatre-level chemical testing team" made up of biologists and chemists had finally disproved the preliminary field tests results and established that pesticide was the substance involved.

He said that sick soldiers, who had become nauseous, dizzy and developed skin blotches, had all recovered.

The turnaround was an embarrassment for the US forces in the region, which had been quick to say that they thought they had finally found the proof they have been actively looking for that Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction.

A spokesman for the US army's 3rd Infantry Division, Major Ross Coffman, had told journalists at Baghdad's airport that the site "could be a smoking gun".

"We are talking about finding a site of possible weapons of mass destruction," he said.

The fact that the coalition forces have come up with no clear evidence of WMD after capturing much of Iraq in 19 days of fighting has raised questions over the war's justification.
 

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