Video of aikido techniques against full resistance

[Tony Dismukes]

So what you are saying is that to get working aikido take a sumo lesson?

I thought that I had commented in this thread, but it must have been another discussion.

I'd say that Sumo competition is actually an ideal opportunity for testing and applying Aiki principles. The reason is that Sumo incentivizes charging and attacking with 100% commitment. (Including attacks that would be considered overcommitted in other contexts.) This is because you can win a match in seconds by blasting your opponent out of the relatively small ring before they can respond.

This full-body commitment of forward energy gives the other wrestler opportunities to blend with the charge, evade, and send the charging wrestler flying. But only if it's done with perfect awareness, timing, and balance. Otherwise the wrestler who is moving forward can just adjust their trajectory and easily overwhelm the wrestler who is trying to evade.

In most other forms of grappling (Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc) competitors will not usually give that degree of forward commitment and so will not offer the same opportunities for displaying pure Aiki blending.

 

[O'Malley]

I thought that I had commented in this thread, but it must have been another discussion.

I'd say that Sumo competition is actually an ideal opportunity for testing and applying Aiki principles. The reason is that Sumo incentivizes charging and attacking with 100% commitment. (Including attacks that would be considered overcommitted in other contexts.) This is because you can win a match in seconds by blasting your opponent out of the relatively small ring before they can respond.

This full-body commitment of forward energy gives the other wrestler opportunities to blend with the charge, evade, and send the charging wrestler flying. But only if it's done with perfect awareness, timing, and balance. Otherwise the wrestler who is moving forward can just adjust their trajectory and easily overwhelm the wrestler who is trying to evade.

In most other forms of grappling (Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc) competitors will not usually give that degree of forward commitment and so will not offer the same opportunities for displaying pure Aiki blending.

I think sumo is indeed suitable, but not for the reason you mention.

Sumo would work to train aikido techniques because a lot of them are already there, and they fit within the ruleset (as opposed to, say, sacrifice throws which would make you lose). Aikido techniques typically keep your hips (therefore your belt) away from your opponent's grubby hands, and let you stand on both feet to move around in a small space while keeping your balance.

That being said, I wouldn't say that it trains "aiki principles" as I understand them. Relying exclusively on overcommitment is not realistic and that's why people can't make their aikido work. Even in sumo, the other guy is not always going full throttle forward, because he's trying to beat you at that game too. That's why judoka work on setting up overcommitments for them to exploit.

The princple of "aiki" is about pivoting the contact point so that the pushing force applied by the opponent goes around it and back into his space. It makes you feel weightless, soft and "sticky".

"Ju" (as in "judo") = when pushed, pull, and when pulled, push.

"Aiki" = when pushed, turn, and when pulled, enter.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It might be better to look at something similar that people can relate to...

In Taiji, we speak of the Transparent Body. Rickson Gracie speaks of Invisible Jiu-Jitsu.


In the Taiji line of Wang Yongquan, the transparent body is a body so empty, so free of resistance,
that force passes through it as if it isn’t there.

It’s not about disappearing. It’s about becoming undefinable.
There’s nothing to grab. Nothing to clash with. You’re present, but without edges.

Rickson Gracie doesn’t use the same words,
but he uses the same principle in his “invisible Jiu-Jitsu.” He doesn’t fight force, he absorbs it.
He doesn’t oppose your structure, he slips through it.

“If my opponent uses strength, I use relaxation. If he uses speed, I use timing.”
Rickson Gracie

Both arts listen before they move.
Both do more with less.
Both find control not in domination,
but in alignment, sensitivity, and timing.

Taiji empties to neutralize.
BJJ empties to submit.

Aikido's Aiki, and Invisible Jiu-Jitsu share many physical and strategic parallels with Taiji,
they do not operate with the same underlying framework of intent (意 / yì) and qi (氣).

It's different.

This means that while we can see similarities, we cannot really talk about the underlying principles without agreeing on the same theory by which they are employed.

This was a very well articulated post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This full-body commitment of forward energy gives the other wrestler opportunities to blend with the charge, evade, and send the charging wrestler flying.

In another thread, I suggested to hold a kicking shield and run toward your opponent with full speed. Someone suggested to "evade". But the purpose of that training is to test your strong rooting and take advantage of head on collision. IMO, if you only depend on "evade" without developing a strong rooting, have soft without hard, it will not be enough.

Not sure how much "head on collision - force against force" training is used in Aikido.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In another thread, I suggested to hold a kicking shield and run toward your opponent with full speed. Someone suggested to "evade". But the purpose of that training is to test your strong rooting and take advantage of head on collision. IMO, if you only depend on "evade" without developing a strong rooting, have soft without hard, it will not be enough.

Not sure how much "head on collision - force against force" training is used in Aikido.

I can't speak for Aikido, but the reason evasion and blending (sometimes) work in Sumo is because of a strong root and meeting force with force is the norm. When you expect to meet strong resistance that you have to overcome, then you can get caught by an opponent who vanishes from in front of you and adds his force to yours. But if you know that your opponent is just going to try dodging out of the way, then it's easier to force him out of the ring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't speak for Aikido, but the reason evasion and blending (sometimes) work in Sumo is because of a strong root and meeting force with force is the norm. When you expect to meet strong resistance that you have to overcome, then you can get caught by an opponent who vanishes from in front of you and adds his force to yours. But if you know that your opponent is just going to try dodging out of the way, then it's easier to force him out of the ring.

There is an important long fist training that you need to stand on your ground, no matter how strong your opponent's attack may be, you are not allowed to move your feet even 1 inch. I like that training a lot. It can help to develop self-confidence.

IMO, without going through extreme hard training, extreme soft training has no meaning.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You're probably right about the discrepancy in striking skill, but they did get to grappling range more than once and the catch wrestler was clearly outclassed there as well. I'd guess that he was a beginner who wasn't ready for that level of competition.

It meets my requirements. It was against a resisting opponent. The defense he used to protect his legs against appeared to be honest. He actively focused on controlling the head which is the same thing I do when I wrestle with my brother. My perspective is simple, "The body cannot go without the head." While most grapplers that I've sparred with go for limbs and legs. I will focus on controlling the head. Grapplers understand this, but they cannot win simply by controlling the head. so, there's not much of this in terms of grappling unless it's a way to set up something else.

For the Aikido practitioner. It reminds me of the "Focus on not losing" vs "Focusing on winning" He only needed to prevent the wrestler from being successful in his attempts to go for his legs. I don't know if there was as much a skill level difference as there was a familiarity difference. The Aikido would have the advantage of having practice against such stake down attempts, while the wrestler would least likely have an opportunity to become familiar with Aikido the way his opponent uses it. It would be like sparring against a Jow Ga Student and then sparring against me. There is going to be a significant difference. I think it's the same here, there are far more wrestlers to train against, and the comfort made it clear that he was familiar with what he had to deal with. If this was Rokas pre-MMA experience, then the wrestler would have easily dealt with Rokas. The Aikido practitioner didn't appear to be forcing a specific technique. He took what he could get.

I don't think either one wanted to enter a striking competition. They went for their areas of comfort. I didn't like the point system in it. I also didn't like the part of if the foot goes out of bounds, then you lose. I would have just made it as a "Score as many points as you can using your techniques." Stepping out of bounds is a reset.

I think the catch wrestler is more used to someone who is willing to get into grappling to wrestle, vs grappling to avoid wrestling. Like I don't grapple with someone in the hopes, I'm going to get more of it lol. That's the thing that I'm trying to prevent. It's a strange thing to say but if I can keep grappling to hand fighting and escapes then I'm having a good day. Once it gets past Step 2 then I'm deeper than where I really want to be. Like swimming in the ocean. I'm not swimming in the ocean so i can get into deeper water. If grappling is the ocean and striking is the land, Then I want to stay as close to land as possible without having to tread water for hours.

 

[wab25]

IMO, without going through extreme hard training, extreme soft training has no meaning.

So... without going through extreme soft training, extreme hard training has no meaning.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is an important long fist training that you need to stand on your ground, no matter how strong your opponent's attack may be, you are not allowed to move your feet even 1 inch.

I think this is due to the nature of the long fist strikes. There are certain strikes in long fist that require this. From what I used it is key to maintaining balance when swinging the arms around in a big circle. I'm saying this not because someone taught me this. When I teach people Jow Ga. I also teach them how to stand their ground. "Weather the storm" or as I call it "Sit in the storm." Which sounds very familiar to what you are describing.

 

[wab25]

I will focus on controlling the head. Grapplers understand this, but they cannot win simply by controlling the head. so, there's not much of this in terms of grappling unless it's a way to set up something else.

What do you mean by "they cannot win simply by controlling the head?" Would a choke not be controlling the head? What about neck cranks? Many neck cranks are achieved through controlling the head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So... without going through extreme soft training, extreme hard training has no meaning.

You can "hard" your enemy to death. You can't "soft" your enemy to death.

 

[wab25]

You can't "soft" your enemy to death.

The trick to an effective choke is to be soft... The best chokes happen when the other guy does not know he is being choked.... they don't even know they have been out when they come back.... I like to "soft" people into joint locks, throws and sweeps all the time. In a good foot sweep, the other guy does not even know he has been swept, the ground comes out of no where and knocks the wind out of him (if its a mat.... concrete has a bit more effect). And then there are the blending throws....

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought that I had commented in this thread, but it must have been another discussion.

I'd say that Sumo competition is actually an ideal opportunity for testing and applying Aiki principles. The reason is that Sumo incentivizes charging and attacking with 100% commitment. (Including attacks that would be considered overcommitted in other contexts.) This is because you can win a match in seconds by blasting your opponent out of the relatively small ring before they can respond.

This full-body commitment of forward energy gives the other wrestler opportunities to blend with the charge, evade, and send the charging wrestler flying. But only if it's done with perfect awareness, timing, and balance. Otherwise the wrestler who is moving forward can just adjust their trajectory and easily overwhelm the wrestler who is trying to evade.

In most other forms of grappling (Judo, BJJ, wrestling, etc) competitors will not usually give that degree of forward commitment and so will not offer the same opportunities for displaying pure Aiki blending.

I trained my Jow Ga grappling skills in a similar context as sumo. The only way to win was to move your opponent out of a tiny area that we were both able to move around in. This allowed me to train "Stand my ground", striking, and grappling (including take downs). Sometimes brute force was used and sometimes it wasn't. What was always used was Sensing, position awareness, and intent.

It was almost like Lei Tai but the area was much smaller. It was small enough where it wouldn't be possible to do Side kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What do you mean by "they cannot win simply by controlling the head?"

In Catch wrestling and Collegiate wrestling, you can score points, but the goal is to pin your opponent. I cannot pin you if all I'm doing is trying to control your head so that you can't grapple beyond having to deal with that.

Would a choke not be controlling the head? What about neck cranks? Many neck cranks are achieved through controlling the head.

I don't know if this is "controlling the head" as much as "seizing the Head."

This is how I think of Control
Controlling the head in wrestling might mean limiting movement, disrupting balance, or preventing an opponent from engaging effectively. In this case there is no need to hold the head or next to prevent movement. I'm able to control movement within movement. Head control is like the steering wheel of the car. Wherever the head goes the body goes.

This is how I think of Seizing.
Seizing the head, on the other hand, implies more aggressive intent—using it to execute a choke, crank, or leverage-based technique that leads to submission or positional dominance. Chokes and neck cranks start with head control, but they have a clear finishing goal forcing a tap-out or positioning for a decisive move. Chokes and neck cranks are like breaks on the car. The goal is to stop the head from moving.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The trick to an effective choke is to be soft... The best chokes happen when the other guy does not know he is being choked.

This would be blending to me. Your movement becomes his movement and as a result he doesn't realize this until he's choked. This would fall more in line with Aikido and Taji Chuan concepts.

When I think of soft power, I tend to think more of me using more structure, relaxation, and redirecting my opponent's energy. In BJJ I guess the equivalent would be you applying a technique and your opponent's force is what chokes them out and not your own force. With Chin Na we would always be concerned that the effort of our training partner to escape the lock is what breaks the joint. Because of this we had to learn when to release the lock to prevent Hyper training partners from hurting themselves.

Hard power in striking would be a horizontal punch
Soft power in striking would be a downward angled punch, which relies on the structure of the punch and the structure of the target to be effective. This way I don't require a lot of punch.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Head control is like the steering wheel of the car. Wherever the head goes the body goes.

It's an MA principle that controlling the head is like the steering wheel, being the point of contact between you and the car. But your hand on the steering wheel only directs the car via the steering mechanism. If this is frozen, the car can't be controlled by your hand on the wheel. This is bad.

But in most MA, we usually want this "mechanism" frozen - our hips locked, and the waist unbent to give us a stable structure. When your opponent is in this condition, getting your hand around the back of his head will not give control of the body - his structure is too strong even if you pull on his head.

For head control to work (like other stand-up grappling moves), his structure has to first be broken/unfrozen. Once the waist is bent, we can more easily lead the opponent via head control. Some prep or setup is needed in conjunction with having hold of his head.

Some (not you) may think one can just initially go for head control or joint lock, but we know it's seldom that easy. Chin Na master, Zhao Da Yuan wrote, "...in a fight it is impossible to grab an opponent and apply Chin Na directly..." Some initial "tenderizing" is normally required. Just thought this point worth stressing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For head control to work (like other stand-up grappling moves), his structure has to first be broken/unfrozen.

2 major guidelines for head lock:

- Your opponent's face has to touch on your chest (your opponent's structore is broken).
- Your head lock elbow has to point downward (not horizontal).

If you squeeze on your opponent's temple, you can cause extreme pain within 2 seconds.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's an MA principle that controlling the head is like the steering wheel, being the point of contact between you and the car. But your hand on the steering wheel only directs the car via the steering mechanism. If this is frozen, the car can't be controlled by your hand on the wheel. This is bad.

But in most MA, we usually want this "mechanism" frozen - our hips locked, and the waist unbent to give us a stable structure. When your opponent is in this condition, getting your hand around the back of his head will not give control of the body - his structure is too strong even if you pull on his head.

For head control to work (like other stand-up grappling moves), his structure has to first be broken/unfrozen. Once the waist is bent, we can more easily lead the opponent via head control. Some prep or setup is needed in conjunction with having hold of his head.

Some (not you) may think one can just initially go for head control or joint lock, but we know it's seldom that easy. Chin Na master, Zhao Da Yuan wrote, "...in a fight it is impossible to grab an opponent and apply Chin Na directly..." Some initial "tenderizing" is normally required. Just thought this point worth stressing.

People mostly Chin na themselves.