Yoshida Clan and Kenpo?

[John Bishop]

Well, one of the popular theory's now about James Mitose's Kenpo history is a claim that he was a maternal descendant of the Yoshida Clan.
Being that the Yoshida Clan was a prominate group in Japanese history, it's history is very well documented. So, what martial arts did the Yoshida Clan practice?

"It was during this decade that the position of Yokozuna was established. It was the result of the rivalry between the Yoshida and Gojo clans in their fight to have control over the sumo world. In 1789, Yoshida Oikaze petitioned the authorities "for the offical recognition of his own power to issue what he called, for the first time, the Yokozuna Menkyo, or Yokozuna license."(Cuyler, 1985, pg 80)
The first ever ring-entering ceremony to be conducted by a Yokozuna was held at the Fukuyama Hachiman Shrine in 1789 by the grand champion and popular hero of the time, Tanikaze Kajinosuke, which officially established the power of the Yoshida clan in sumo circles.

And of course:



"Kotaro Yoshida, student of Sokaku Tekeda (Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu), founded or inherited the Yoshida family style called "Yanagi Shindare Ryu, which combines several arts but is heavily Daito-Ryu based. He is best-known as being the person who introduced Morehei Uyeshiba, founder of Aikido, to Sakaku Takeda. ( He was heavily involved in the military espionage activities of the Japanese intelligence during WWII though the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Osaka )"
"Kenjii Yoshida , son of Yoshida Katoro, inherited the Yanagi Shindare Ryu, ( he relocated to North America before the second war, and refused to support the japanese war effort. ) He returned after WWII but was not welcomed by his father who felt betrayed by his son for refusing to support the military effort of his homeland and was banished from Japan.."

Again we find no (independant of James Mitose)history of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo existing in Japan.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the plot thickens

shawn

 

[GAB]

Hi John,
You probably won't find any thing mentioned exactly Kosho Shorei Ryu Ken/mpo.
But as far as the pine tree and other references, I think they might be there.

Robert Trias Mon, was and is about the pine tree. I think the common denominator is pine tree.

It was changed to protect his ancestors if you want to believe it or not? Kelly and I were talking today and there is a lot of information that backs up the fact that he was in Japan so as far as I am concerned that is moot.

Now as far as his Martial art being exactly as we would want it to fit into the puzzle we have made of it,that will not happen.

As Shawn said the plot thickens and gets harder to understand.

Tracy has thrown a few wrench's into the works and so did EP, but those are pretty apparent when dissected, it is much more complex regarding KSRK.
Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Hi John,

But as far as the pine tree and other references, I think they might be there.

Robert Trias Mon, was and is about the pine tree. I think the common denominator is pine tree.

The Pine Tree could be a reference to the Shaolin Temple. Shaolon, Sil-Lum, Shorie, Shorin are all ways of refering to a pine tree.
The legend that I got was that the original temple was located in a grove of pine trees
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Todd,
Yes, I have read that also.

Back to the thickening of the plot. It will take time to sort this out, truth is sometimes very difficult. With the advent of the web and computers, it will become clearer as time goes on and families release information (I hope)...

John has quite a bit and so does Hanshi, I wish they could clear the air,sit down and talk, share.
Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

I agree Mr Bishop and Hanshi Juchnik have done quite a bit with in the arts.


However, I don't get the plot thickens idea as it seems all avenues to tie Mitose into something bigger come to a dead end. Maybe maybe the plot stays the same and my head thickens?
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Todd,
I think that is a good analogy, if I am to take it. You are getting more knowledge, and coming to the end of the journey, as far as you are concerned.

If you can just understand that this has been going on for several decades and then some, for the main participant Hanshi Bruce, he is with the knowledge and still feels secure enough in his own right to keep the ball rolling.

His 17th Gathering in the name of Mitose will be held at the end of this month
25th and 26th, in Oregon, pretty impressive.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

I have been to the gathering for the past 6 years, and it is a awesome event. In fact, I am listed as a presenter this year, but due to a untimely divorce i can't swing it!

Todd

 

[KenpoDave]

Well, one of the popular theory's now about James Mitose's Kenpo history is a claim that he was a maternal descendant of the Yoshida Clan.
Being that the Yoshida Clan was a prominate group in Japanese history, it's history is very well documented. So, what martial arts did the Yoshida Clan practice?

"Kotaro Yoshida, student of Sokaku Tekeda (Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu), founded or inherited the Yoshida family style called "Yanagi Shindare Ryu, which combines several arts but is heavily Daito-Ryu based. He is best-known as being the person who introduced Morehei Uyeshiba, founder of Aikido, to Sakaku Takeda. ( He was heavily involved in the military espionage activities of the Japanese intelligence during WWII though the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Osaka )"
"Kenjii Yoshida , son of Yoshida Katoro, inherited the Yanagi Shindare Ryu, ( he relocated to North America before the second war, and refused to support the japanese war effort. ) He returned after WWII but was not welcomed by his father who felt betrayed by his son for refusing to support the military effort of his homeland and was banished from Japan.."

Again we find no (independant of James Mitose)history of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo existing in Japan.

Cool. Thanks for the info. Again, I submit that Mitose made up the name, and that the art practiced in Japan is NOT called Kosho Ryu. So, what is the curriculum or Yanagi Shindare Ryu? Is kenpo a component of the Ryu, and if so, does it resemble the kenpo Mitose taught in Hawaii?

 

[KenpoDave]

Again we find no (independant of James Mitose)history of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo existing in Japan.

John, I found the site where you copied the info on Yanagi Shindare ryu. On the lineage page, a few men up from where you copied, I found this...

Soke Saigo Tanomo ( Chikamasa) 1829-1905, student of Takeda Saomon, and sixth generation of the Emporer Seiwa, although he still called the system Oshiiki Uchi, he was the second generation to use the term Aiki . , He has training in Misoguchi-ryu swordmanship and Koshu-ryu, and his resitance of the Meijii government, led to the ritual suicide of hius mother, wife, five daughters and 14 other members of his family who thought he had been killed by the government. , He then served as a Shinto priest, and adopted Shiro Saigo as his son, hoping he would take-over the system, but, Saigo Shiro, joined the fledging art founded by his father-in-law, which became known as Kodokan Judo, ( This led to Saigo Tanomo asking a young fighter by the name of Sokaku to become the next inheritor of this art.)

Now, koshu-ryu and kosho-ryu may not be the same, but I found it a rather odd coincidence.

BTW, for those interested, the site is http://juliancollege.com/lineage.html

 

[John Bishop]

John, I found the site where you copied the info on Yanagi Shindare ryu. On the lineage page, a few men up from where you copied, I found this...




Now, koshu-ryu and kosho-ryu may not be the same, but I found it a rather odd coincidence.

BTW, for those interested, the site is http://juliancollege.com/lineage.html[/QUOTE]

Actually, that's not the site I got the information from. It's pretty common information on various websites that talk about Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu history. I would have definitely noticed the referance to "Kosho Ryu" if I was on the website you quoted.
I'm going to check out that website right now. Hopefully it isn't a Kenpo website that took liberties with "Yanagi Shindare Ryu Aiki-Jutsu history. I've read several historic accounts of the Yoshida Clan and Yanagi Shindare Ryu Aiki-Jutsu (their pretty well known), and this is the first time I've seen Kosho Ryu mentioned.

 

[John Bishop]

Well the link you posted is dead. So I went to the "Julian College" website and looked for the info you posted. I couldn't find it, but I'm not the most computer literate person on the web.
Julian College itself appears to be very questionable. First time I ever saw a college dean pictured wearing a gi. But, thats not the worst of it. It appears that they push home internet learning, and none of their degree programs have been accredited by the Canadian government agency that accredits colleges and universities. Wonder why?

 

[GAB]

Hi John, I was over to the sanjosekenpo board. Dr. Ted Sumner has posted an article on his board regarding the return of Mitose, (coming back from Japan) I looked at it, you might want to check it out.

Quite a bit of information in the article.

Regards, Gary

 

[Mekugi]

Daito ryu cannot technically be traced past Sokaku Takeda, so anything here would be a dead end.

That being said, allow me to give you a look at the "clans" & how they worked within the "military state" as it relates to martial arts. If you belong to clan "A", you could technically be assigned to State "X", to serve people who ran it from clan "B". In a lot of cases, bushi of higher ranks (some called them "samurai") would actually get paid to master various schools of martial arts, especially those within the "state", regardless of the clan. Hence you have people from various fiefs and "clans" learning such things as swordsmanship, spear, swimming in a mixed fashion. Awards would be gold, rice, land, and big silver starts that had "GREAT JOB" on it (oops, sorry, that was at bushi Juku...). Anyway, this is just ONE way that this situation was handled, namely in Kyushu. Those in the middle and upper pats of Japan may have had a different system, but it does seem to represent the ideology of a system.


Regarding Yoshida Oikaze and Yokozuna Menkyo:
This is simply the family who issue the paperwork the Yokozuna. That's it. They were still doing this until recently when the Grand Sumo Organization took the honor over. Now they issue the paperwork, officially. That being said, the "Yoshida" family in this case didn't promote people or have anything to do with the decisions of who became Yokozuna, simply because there is a match system and a committee to do this(which was also set up loosely at that time).

 

[KenpoDave]

Well the link you posted is dead. So I went to the "Julian College" website and looked for the info you posted.

John, try typing in http://juliancollege/lineage.html

I couldn't make my link work either, but I did go to the site this morning.

Several of the sections on their are word for word what you posted on the Yoshidas.

 

[KenpoDave]

John, try

http://juliancollege.com/daito2.html

I couldn't get in from the main Julian College site, but this site is the "main page" for the martial arts.

 

[The Kai]

Hi Todd,
I think that is a good analogy, if I am to take it. You are getting more knowledge, and coming to the end of the journey, as far as you are concerned

Regards, Gary

Actually I am just getting humor off of this. But again thank you for your Kindness to acknowledge the state of my journey. Wanted to believe something so badly do not necassrily make it true
T

 

[Brother John]

This is all very interesting. I've always found it interesting to know more about the origins of the things I'm involved in.
BUT: from a different point of view, it's a little bit of a benefit to us in American Kenpo that the distant roots of our father art are lost in the mists of time. I've been involved with arts, and familiar with others, that spent a bit too much time and energy in debating 'roots'. In American Kenpo, the proof is in the moment. It's an art "in the now", so to speak. So we generally avoid too much debate and hasle about 'origins'. Oh..these issues exist for us, but at least they generally end at about Chow or Mitose...and no further.

But I do find this discussion interesting.
Regardless of the more ancient roots behind either of these two men, their abilities and the systems that stemmed from them are proof enough of their pedegree as far as I am concerned.

I'm glad we have scholars like yourselves to do the footwork on the history research.
:asian:
Your Brother
John

 

[John Bishop]

Thanks Dave:
That last link did work, but there are several sections to go thru. I checked the "Lineage" section and found what I think you described. It talks about their Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu lineage, and lists a individual named "Tanomo Saigo" 1829-1905. I see where his bio. says that he trained in "Misoguchi-ryu" and "Kosho Ryu", but if you read the whole bio. it later refers to the art with a complete name of "Koshu-Ryu Gungaku kenjutsu", which would indicate a sword art, not a kenpo or karate style.

 

[Mekugi]

I thought I would throw out a note here regarding "Saigo Ha Daito Ryu" .

At best, the information and legitimacy are extremely questionable and I would take anything that website expounds with a grain of salt.