Hunter Dispute Turns Deadly...Argument for Gun Control?

psi_radar

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First off, I'm a hunter (eat what I kill, squirrel, elk, deer, or whatever) and a gun enthusiast, and this incident makes me absolutely sick. It's a hunter's worst nightmare, as well as a real knock to those of us who use guns responsibly. (BTW, using a .22 to deer hunt is extremely irresponsible.)

In most states it's illegal to shoot a semi-automatic rifle with more than 4 shots in the clip and one in the breech while hunting. The SKS usually has an internal 10-shot magazine (non-detachable) but can be modified to accept detachable mags. So this guy was definitely on the wrong side of the law if he shot 20 continuous rounds.

The SKS is not an ideal deer hunting rifle. As a weapon, they aren't very well made or particularly accurate, using stamped mass produced parts.

Overall, "assault weapons" by their very nature are compromises. Military research has indicated it's more effective for soldiers to be able to put lots of bullets into the air rather than squeezing off single shots accurately at large distances. Therefore, troops need to carry lots of ammunition so the weapons are designed to use more compact, less powerful rounds. As a result, the SKS 7.62x39 mm round isn't as powerful as sporting rounds of similar caliber. For instance, my 30.06 bolt-action is accurate up until about 400 yards as opposed to the SKS or AK-47's 200--they're about the same size bullet but have less of a charge pushing them. So, some might argue the deer rifle is more deadly, it just doesn't have the same rate of fire.

Borrowing from "The Jerk" I'd say this was a matter of a defective person rather than a failure of gun laws. The ban that was just lifted would not have kept this individual from purchasing this firearm. As for "those gun shows" I just went to one over the weekend and met a whole lot of really nice people including law enforcement personnel (good line of work to get into if you like guns), and just happened to purchase a Romanian SAR-1 and sundry other equipment. They had background checks at the tables and went through all necessary legal procedures--the same routine as if I went to a sporting goods store.

What can we do about something like this? On an individual level, probably not much besides things we learn in martial arts. If you come upon an armed person in the woods, be wary and respectful, and if they get belligerent, don't challenge them. Keep your head, leave and hunt somewhere else or call the cops if it's your property. I was hunting on the continental divide in October and was able to get cell reception the whole time. Ran into other hunters on a number of occasions, all were nice but there's definitely a level of mutual respect and wariness when you know everyone's carrying a loaded firearm. In terms of banning guns, they're already too pervasive in our society to not believe they're here to stay.
 

SenseiBear

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Tgace said:
Almost any weapon the hunters had could have been as lethal as the shooters. Im betting this was due to ambush rather than any kind of "weapon superiority".


from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/
One of the men approached the intruder and asked him to leave, as Crotteau and the others in the cabin hopped on their all-terrain vehicles and headed to the scene.

“The suspect got down from the deer stand, walked 40 yards, fiddled with his rifle. He took the scope off his rifle, he turned and he opened fire on the group,” Meier said.

'He hunted them down'
One of the men who was shot called for help on his radio, but it was too late. The gunman fired again, hitting the people who had just arrived on ATVs.

The gunman was “chasing after them and killing them,” Deputy Tim Zeigle said. “He hunted them down.” It is unclear whether anyone returned fire. The members of the hunting party had only one gun among them.

...

Someone in the group wrote the suspect’s hunting license number, which hunters wear on their clothing, by tracing it on a dirty vehicle, Meier said.

....

'A fairly cheap weapon'
Vang was carrying an SKS 7.62-mm caliber rifle, a cheap but powerful semiautomatic weapon, authorities said.

Mike Bartz, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resource’s regional warden supervisor for the area, said the SKS is legal for hunting in the state and has no restrictions. He said it is not uncommon to see hunters with the guns.

“We see more and more of them being used. They’re a fairly cheap weapon. They fire a cartridge very similar to a .30-30, which is a very common weapon used for deer hunting,” Bartz said.
 

psi_radar

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In its unaltered form, with five or less shells in the breech and the magazine, an SKS is legal for hunting. There's some spin here; there's no way that the perp could hunt with a full banana-clip legally. Be aware that the press will take this case and run with it; if it bleeds, it leads. The words "assault rifle" cause a visceral reaction in a lot of people, particulary the uninformed. What do you think of when "assault rifle" is coined? Perhaps some people in turbans firing them in the air on full automatic, shouting ayayayayayay allah ackbar--a la True Lies?

These people are preying on your fears. The Maryland snipers used a .223 assault rifle, but never fired more than two rounds at a time. Sick but true, their accuracy and effectiveness would have been better with a bolt-action .308 sport rifle. This is a horrific incident, no doubt, but let's let the blame lie at the foot of the person who pulled the trigger, not the gun.
 
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Makalakumu

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One of the things that we have going on in MN and WI is the immigration of a large number of southeast asians. The last of the refugee camps are closing over there and those people have nowhere to go. Like anybody else, most of this population are great hardworking people and I would welcome them as my neighbor any day...especially for the dinner parties! Yet there are always a sprinkling of unsavory characters that come over too and we have no idea what these guys have done previously. So, basically, the worst guy in one of those camps can come over and buy a gun on a "clean record"...

In this case, Chai Vang has lived in this country for twelve years. He has a family with six children. He served in the military and has a criminal record with a few misdomeaners. He also has a history of domestic violence with the police being called to his house several times...no action was taken. Should Mr. Vang have been allowed to buy a gun?

Is there any test that can be administered to weed out people with this kind of background (I'm not talking about race now)?

Perhaps any measure we attempt will be worthless. Maybe the price for our 2nd amendment rights is to put up with these few and far between incidents.
 

Rynocerous

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Well, I go by what a very wise lady once told me... "Never believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see". Even though I know that these people died, I can't believe anything I hear until the official report is let out.

On the topic of outlawing weapons, or a more strict gun control.

I quote a bumber sticker here -"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."

Cheers,

Ryan
 

Rynocerous

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upnorthkyosa said:
In this case, Chai Vang has lived in this country for twelve years. He has a family with six children. He served in the military and has a criminal record with a few misdomeaners. He also has a history of domestic violence with the police being called to his house several times...no action was taken. Should Mr. Vang have been allowed to buy a gun?

Is there any test that can be administered to weed out people with this kind of background (I'm not talking about race now)?
No I don't think that he sould had been allowed to by a firearm. I believe that there should be a more secure background check before any average Joe can go buy a firearm. Although it also comes down to the fact that if the person really wants it they can go buy it illegally on the street.

Cheers,

Ryan
 

michaeledward

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A sixth person has died from this shooting.

Concerning the lack of weapons in possession of the victims. During the first round of shooting, apparently the victims contacted those in the hunting cabin via radio. Those in the hunting cabin responded to the radio call for help without their weapons.

The deceased are:
Robert Crotteau - 42
Joey Crotteau - 20
Al Laski - 43
Mark Roidt - 28
Jessica Willers - 27
Denny Drew - 55
 
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raedyn

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In any case, this is tremendously sad. I wonder what the heck was wrong with that dude that he killed those people!
 

SenseiBear

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raedyn said:
In any case, this is tremendously sad. I wonder what the heck was wrong with that dude that he killed those people!
and that is the issue. By looking at the gun, we are not considering the right issue, which is:
...what the heck was wrong with that dude that he killed those people!
 

Flatlander

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As far as I can speculate, the problem is thus: no matter how many restrictions are in place, someone will always slip through the system. Anyone can buy a car. They must take specialized training and pass an exam to drive it. There is no guarantee that they won't get behind the wheel and drive over people intentionally, yet, we cannot outlaw cars because of that possibility. There are always going to be the few who abuse the priviledge. All we can do is punish them appropriately, and carry on.

The misuse by the few should not become a punishment on the many.
 

loki09789

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Adept said:
Good lord, what on earth would you hunt with a .22? Even Hog Deer are too big for that!
Not my cup of tea either but there are some who think that it is a challenge....I say it is a waste of time. It isn't illegal to use, just not a good call. Cruel to the animal (which is already going to get hurt) and makes for more time tracking/working.

If I want to raise the challenge bar, I'll fill my Bow stamp out again....

On the issue of the SKS and legallity. I believe that the weapon itself was legal. Since it used an external magazine, the capacity of 20 rounds might be illegal. I know with sport shot guns they have plugs that you can/must use in the tube magazine to stay within seasonal/game capacity limits as well.

This is all looking fishy in everyway.

As far as gun control. In NYS there is a law on the books that you can not get a pistol if you have a certain type of record or have been charged with domestic violence.

His status as a naturized citizen should not be a limitation. The fact that he was never charged with domestic violence is the problem for limiting his access to firearms.

I have to agree that no matter what the tiger on paper is, it comes down to enforcement and punitive actions. If the funding and goals don't support enforcement it will be easier to slip through the cracks no matter what the law says.
 

psi_radar

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upnorthkyosa said:
... So, basically, the worst guy in one of those camps can come over and buy a gun on a "clean record"...

... He also has a history of domestic violence with the police being called to his house several times...no action was taken. Should Mr. Vang have been allowed to buy a gun?

Is there any test that can be administered to weed out people with this kind of background (I'm not talking about race now)?

On the form you fill out to buy a gun, one of the questions directly relates to whether or not you're involved in a domestic violence dispute, but basically that's just applying the honor system. If Vang's wife had gone ahead and charged him with domestic violence, then most likely he would not have been able to purchase a weapon. But there's always a way to get a gun. As G. Gordon Liddy once said, "As a convicted felon, I am unable to purchase a firearm. However, Mrs. Liddy owns 27."

There's also more to this story, I'm sure. Why did a whole bunch of people race out on ATVs to the site before trouble started? Sounds like they may have been stirring some up. I'm not defending Vang, but as usual I think there's a little more to it than is revealed in the newspapers. Sounds like there's some tension between the Hmong people and the caucasions out there.
 
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MisterMike

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In Massachusetts, is soemone files a restraining order on you, you cannot keep your own firearms.

You may also lose your right to own a firearm in MAssachusetts, which may affect you if you move to another state, for disobeying a fireman.
 

Cruentus

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upnorthkyosa said:
Maybe the price for our 2nd amendment rights is to put up with these few and far between incidents.

No, No, and No. Don't confuse where the blame lies.

This is the price for having the technology to make guns, something that we can't reverse now that we have them. Just like the invention of the nuclear bomb has prices that go along with it that we can't reverse.

The blame lies in the technology and not our second amendment rights or lack of gun restrictions. This is because the more restrictive gun laws become, the more this propigates a black market (similar to drugs, similar to alcahol during the prohibition), where criminals have free rein to get these things while law abiding citizens are now restricted from getting these things, and thus restricted from self-defense from these things.

The blame isn't 2nd amendment rights. The blame is on something we can't do anything about: technology.

So, what CAN we do? As I previously described, you make guns easier for law abiding citicens to get, and you spend your energies on cracking down on the black market and actual crime.

And yes, inevitably some will slip through the cracks; and hopefully good self-defense training and good law enforcement can do damage control when it does.

Paul
 
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Makalakumu

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Tulisan said:
No, No, and No. Don't confuse where the blame lies.

This is the price for having the technology to make guns, something that we can't reverse now that we have them. Just like the invention of the nuclear bomb has prices that go along with it that we can't reverse.

The blame lies in the technology and not our second amendment rights or lack of gun restrictions. This is because the more restrictive gun laws become, the more this propigates a black market (similar to drugs, similar to alcahol during the prohibition), where criminals have free rein to get these things while law abiding citizens are now restricted from getting these things, and thus restricted from self-defense from these things.

The blame isn't 2nd amendment rights. The blame is on something we can't do anything about: technology.

So, what CAN we do? As I previously described, you make guns easier for law abiding citicens to get, and you spend your energies on cracking down on the black market and actual crime.

And yes, inevitably some will slip through the cracks; and hopefully good self-defense training and good law enforcement can do damage control when it does.

Paul

Good point, Paul. I was thinking about education when I posted this. I feel like education is probably the best we can do in this situation. Good self defense education and good usage education would have helped in this situation.
 

michaeledward

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From a CNN article.


A hunter approached Vang to tell him he was on private property, and Vang started to leave as other hunters approached, the statement said. Vang said the hunters surrounded him, and some started calling him racial slurs.

Vang said he started walking away but looked back to see the first hunter point his rifle at him and then fire a shot that hit the ground 30 to 40 feet behind him, the statement said.

That's when Vang told investigators he started firing at the group, and some fell to the ground and others tried to run away, according to the statement.
"They drew First Blood" - John Rambo.
 

bignick

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michaeledward said:
"They drew First Blood" - John Rambo.
If he was leaving the situation and was fired upon and instead of fleeing started to return fire he is at least partly responsible...it's hard to justify homicide in self defense when you had an oppurtunity to leave.

On the same token, the hunters that supposedly fired upon him first would also be responsible...

time and the courts will determine the whole story...
 
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raedyn

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Assuming this article is accurate, I believe this man reasonably felt threatened by the group that surrounded him. I do not know if this justifies him killing several of them - in particular the unarmed ones.
 

someguy

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I think it is evidence for people control.
Gun's are just a tool. People are the problem.
Get rid of people and you have no problem.
Something wrong with this picture but I can't figure out what it is...
More seriously though. There usually is more to the story than most peopel can ever know. Before I would decide on anything I would have to know more for certian.
 
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