Hunter Dispute Turns Deadly...Argument for Gun Control?

[Makalakumu]

This article made me physically sick. This happened close to my home. Rice Lake, WI is only 90 miles south of here.

Five dead in deer hunting dispute
Alleged gunman arrested after fight over tree stand

The Associated Press
Updated: 5:56 a.m. ET Nov. 22, 2004


BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt’s opening weekend, authorities said.

The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff’s officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.

The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.

It’s not known who shot first, Zeigle said.

Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it’s unclear who shot them, he said.

The dead included four males — including a teenage boy — and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.

All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.

“It’s absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?” asked Zeigle.

Zeigle said the suspect was “chasing after them and killing them,” with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin’s statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.

The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.

The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.

One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph’s Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.

Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.

“When you’re hunting you don’t expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you,” he said. “You have no idea who is coming up to you.”

It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. “We’re all old, dyed-in-wool hunters,” he said. “We wouldn’t go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We’re not forgetting it.”

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/

Are these types of tragedies becoming more common? Would more gun control measures prevent these types of things from occuring? What can be done to cut the occurence of these types of tragedies?

 

[TigerWoman]

I heard about this...all over the news in Minn. Really sickening. How you could you give a mental test to a person wanting a gun license? Would those that wanted to hunt anyway, just get there gun and go, so would it really stop the wackos? And then it is so easy to buy a gun, own a gun. This weekend there was one of those lovely gun shows in a nearby town. Yes, I think there should be more gun control. Is there even a required "course" to take to be able to own a gun? Glad my family doesn't hunt. TW

 

[Lisa]

First off... I am deeply saddened for those who died and send condolences for the families of the victems.

Secondly, I am sickened by the event. I sit here somewhat frozen while my hubby is out in the bush hunting right now.

Thirdly, I hope the man responsible is punished thoroughly for his actions and hopefully the entire story will come out soon.

And about gun control...I think we need to control those that can obtain the guns and legislate it so that if the gun is used in a criminal activity that the person who handled the gun gets the highest punishment possible.

I think TGace said it best in another thread (apologies if I am misquoting someone) Guns don't load and levitate on their own to shoot and kill/harm someone. Legislation needs to be focused on the person using the gun illegally. There are many, thousands of law abiding gun enthusiasts ranging from hunters to sport oriented people.

If and when further gun control legislation is introduced lets hope it doesn't become the same fiasco it has up here in Canada with gun registration costing the taxpayers in excess of $250 million or more. It has yet to solve a crime.

This man seems somewhat disturbed to do something like that and you can't legislate against insanity.

 

[MisterMike]

Gun control will not stop these types of things.

Comomn sense, courtesy and sportman-like conduct are what were lacking here.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is an article from our local paper...

Five killed in hunt dispute
SHOOTINGS: Authorities arrest a St. Paul man after the incident that also left three people injured.
BY SAM COOK
NEWS TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

A dispute among deer hunters over a tree stand Sunday afternoon in Northwestern Wisconsin left five people dead and three injured, law enforcement officials said.

Chai Vang, of St. Paul, is a suspect in the shootings. He was being held in Sawyer County Jail on Sunday night in Hayward.

Names of the victims who died were not released. One of the dead was a woman and another was a teenage boy, authorities said.

According to the Sawyer County sheriff's office, the incident occurred about noon in the Township of Meteor in southwest Sawyer County, about four miles east of Birchwood, Wis.

The incident involved hunters who were on their own land and another deer hunter who was trespassing, according to a statement issued Sunday evening by the sheriff's office.

Tim Zeigle, Sawyer County chief deputy, said two members of a hunting party were returning to their shack about noon when they spotted a hunter sitting in one of their deer stands. They told him that he was on private property and needed to leave, Zeigle said.

That is when the gunfire erupted.

One of the hunters radioed back to a hunting shack for help, Zeigle said. When other hunters arrived, they were also shot.

In all, eight people were shot with a high-powered firearm. Five were killed, Zeigle said. The other three were transported to nearby hospitals.

When Vang was arrested, he was carrying an SKS assault rifle and was out of ammunition, authorities said.

After the initial shooting, one of the victims jotted down the deer-hunting number the shooter was wearing on his back. Zeigle said members of the hunting party may have returned fire, "but this has not been confirmed."

The injured hunters tried to call for help, but there is no cell phone reception in that area, so the men loaded one of the injured hunters into a pickup and drove to Ed's Pit Stop on Wisconsin Highway 48 in Birchwood. They were met there by an ambulance, which transported the injured hunter to the Rice Lake hospital.

The number the injured hunter jotted down was relayed to the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, which quickly identified the suspect as Vang, Zeigle said.

After the shooting, Vang, who apparently had gotten lost in the woods, encountered two deer hunters, and they guided him to a nearby road. Once he was on the road, a nearby DNR officer spotted the number on Vang's back and arrested him without incident.

One shooting victim remained in critical condition Sunday evening at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield, Wis., Melody Hargis, a nursing supervisor at the hospital, said Sunday evening.

Two other victims were transported to Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, said Jim Erickson, nursing supervisor at the medical center. At 9:30 p.m., one victim, Lauren Hesebeck, had undergone surgery and was in fair condition, said Jennifer Grescowak, director of community relations at the hospital. The other victim, Denny Drew, had undergone surgery and was in serious condition.

The family of two of the victims who remained hospitalized Sunday night released a statement through Lakeview Medical Center.

"Our families certainly appreciate the thoughts and prayers of this close-knit community and encourage you to think and pray for the other families involved," said the statement by Theresa Hesebeck, Lauren Hesebeck's wife and Denny Drew's sister, and by Heather Drew Kietz, the daughter of Denny Drew.

Wisconsin's firearms deer hunting season began Saturday and will continue through Nov. 28. About 600,000 hunters are expected to go afield.

Word of the incident spread quickly through nearby communities and across the state.

"It's a stunning deal," Stan Lindow, chief of the Birchwood Fire Department, said Sunday evening. "A lot of guys are talking about not going out hunting for a while. I don't know if that'll happen or not."

Birchwood is a town of 443 in southeastern Washburn county.

"The only thing I can tell you is that everybody is just shocked," Nancy Seffinga, owner of the Edgewood Supper Club in Birchwood, said Sunday night. "It's unbelievable it happened. It's terrible. It's sad."

Disputes among hunters over property boundaries and hunting spots are not uncommon, said Fred Strand, Wisconsin DNR wildlife manager in Superior.

"They're not uncommon, but most of them, obviously, get resolved in a much more humane manner than this," Strand said.

He was not aware of any other dispute that had escalated into gunfire.

Lindow, a deer hunter, said he has sometimes found another hunter where he wanted to hunt.

"I figure, he's there. He beat me to it, so I have to go somewhere else," Lindow said.

Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, Wis., was about two miles away from the scene of the incident, hunting near Deer Lake.

"When you're hunting, you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," Wagner said.

He was hunting in a party of about 20 hunters. He said the shooting incident wouldn't stop their hunt.

"We wouldn't go home because of this, but we'll keep it in our minds," Wagner said. "We won't forget it."

Dale Olson, chairman of the 170-resident Town of Meteor, said deputies were driving up and down roads using loudspeakers to alert hunters to get out of the woods after the incident.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The St. Paul Pioneer Press and the Associated Press contributed to this report.

Take a look at some of the passages.

 

[Makalakumu]

These in particular...

When Vang was arrested, he was carrying an SKS assault rifle and was out of ammunition, authorities said.

Wisconsin's firearms deer hunting season began Saturday and will continue through Nov. 28. About 600,000 hunters are expected to go afield.

Word of the incident spread quickly through nearby communities and across the state.

"It's a stunning deal," Stan Lindow, chief of the Birchwood Fire Department, said Sunday evening. "A lot of guys are talking about not going out hunting for a while. I don't know if that'll happen or not."

Disputes among hunters over property boundaries and hunting spots are not uncommon, said Fred Strand, Wisconsin DNR wildlife manager in Superior.

"They're not uncommon, but most of them, obviously, get resolved in a much more humane manner than this," Strand said.

He was not aware of any other dispute that had escalated into gunfire.

 

[raedyn]

I don't know much about hunting, so someone please tell me - are assault rifles normally used when hunting deer?

 

[MisterMike]

I don't know much about hunting, so someone please tell me - are assault rifles normally used when hunting deer?

Are we SURE he was there to hunt DEER?

 

[OUMoose]

I don't know much about hunting, so someone please tell me - are assault rifles normally used when hunting deer?

Of course! Why, I'm suprised they haven't authorized fully armored vehicles for hunting these dangerous and often quite deadly deer.

/anti-hunting sarcasm off

 

[Lisa]

I don't know much about hunting, so someone please tell me - are assault rifles normally used when hunting deer?

This is a small caliber rifle if I am not mistaken. It is not common to use these in Canada but I am not sure about the states. Could someone please tell me if they are? I will have to check but here in Canada they could be considered a restricted weapon depending on the size of the clip.

As for "was he there to Deer hunt?" Who knows, from what I understand they don't even know who shot at who first. Gues we will have to wait and see.

 

[raedyn]

Are we SURE he was there to hunt DEER?

Well, that's kinda why I was asking. If an assault rifle is typically used while hunting, then it's reasonable to assume that he was hunting and umm... snapped or something. But if this isn't a usual hunting weapon, then I'd question his motives.
So seriously, do hunters often use assault rifles?

from dictionary.com

assault rifle -n.1)Any of vaious automatic or semi automatic rifles dsigned for individual use in combat. 2) any of the automatic rifles or semiautomatic rifles with large magazines designed for military use

This is just a wide-eyed city girl not knowing what the hell we are talking about and wanting to understand better. I'm trying to avoid jumping to knee-jerk conclusions. So please, educate me.

 

[loki09789]

Of course! Why, I'm suprised they haven't authorized fully armored vehicles for hunting these dangerous and often quite deadly deer.

/anti-hunting sarcasm off

First off, there is no such thing as an 'assault weapon.' Any weapon you use to assault people is an assault weapon. That particular tag is a popularization of either a marketing or journalistic/political phrase.

As long as I have a fire arm that meets the legal limits of ammo capacity, length, stock...and what ever limitations are in place it doesn't matter if I carry an SKS, AK, M16 ("COLT SPORTER") or a Marlin lever action. For rifle, open sight hunting, an 'assault weapon' would have great sights for open field or running shots.

Now, that rant aside. I do think that there might be some other evidence coming out later that would make it clear that this isn't only a 'hunting location argument' - either the guy was whacked out, coked up or there was some purpose/intent to the meeting.

 

[Adept]

I don't know much about hunting, so someone please tell me - are assault rifles normally used when hunting deer?

Sure, why not? In all seriousness, an AK47 makes a decent close-range deer gun. It's a powerful slug, accurate enough at close range, rugged and tough enough that it can be dropped in the mud without preventing you from firing, an all round decent gun. No one in their right mind would fire on fully automatic at a deer. Your accuracy would be ruined, and you would use too much ammo.

But regardless of that, the rifle in question is not a 30-rounds-a-second sickle clip assault rifle. It was a semi-automatic (one trigger squeeze fires one round) rifle. A very different, and very common beast.

I feel for the families in question. This is a horrible thing to have happen to anyone. But this guy sounds mentally unbalanced, and I do not believe any relevant firearm legislation would have made a difference to this situation.

 

[Rynocerous]

I don't know much about hunting, so someone please tell me - are assault rifles normally used when hunting deer?

Hey Raedyn, how are you. I actually just got back from deer hunting here in SASK. I'm just breaking for lunch, and plan on heading back out, now on to your question. You are allowed a semi auto weapon with only 4 rounds in the magazine, and 1 in the chamber. Or a single shot bolt action like I'm using today.

Nalia, actually a 7.62 round is a bigger round, like posted earlier is used in a AK-47, which is a very deadly weapon with massive stopping power. I personally use a Winchester 300 MAG, which uses a 7.62, and I am yet to see a deer get up after hitting it with that round. A 308 uses the same caliber just a smaller casing, which in turn makes it have a little less kick, but still excelent stopping power. If you are comparing it to the likes of a 50 cal, then yes it is a reletively smaller round.

OU Moose, Just curiously what do you have against hunting? I personally am a hunter, and I eat all the meat that I kill. If I don't need it all then I give it to the food bank. I am against people who kill just for the antlers, or poach dozens of animals for profit. I actually have only killed one buck in my lifetime, and it was pathetic. It's not about the prize to me it is about the sport, and the food. I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything just curious on your thoughts.

I personally get frustrated of the stereotyping of the hunters. The majority of hunters are safe and have been through a Hunter education class to impliment saftey. Who knows, maybe this was an extremist who is so anti-hunting that he went off killing people to give the hunters a worse name.(Just speculating, and probably not the case)

More on topic I think this is absolutly terrible, and he should be punished to the full extent of the law.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[OUMoose]

OU Moose, Just curiously what do you have against hunting? I personally am a hunter, and I eat all the meat that I kill. If I don't need it all then I give it to the food bank. I am against people who kill just for the antlers, or poach dozens of animals for profit. I actually have only killed one buck in my lifetime, and it was pathetic. It's not about the prize to me it is about the sport, and the food. I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything just curious on your thoughts.

I grew up in a very redneck community, and all too often I'd see people go hunting just for the sake of hunting, or because it was some macho thing to do. We actually got days off in High School for deer season and duck season. I don't have a problem honestly with people who actually use what they hunt (btw, venison sausage is awesome!), but the (explative deleted) good'ol boys who go out with the largest and most powerful firearm they can carry just for the sake of going out irritate me. In my personal experience, hunters like Ryno are few these days, but YMMV.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I personally am a hunter, and I eat all the meat that I kill. If I don't need it all then I give it to the food bank. I am against people who kill just for the antlers, or poach dozens of animals for profit. I actually have only killed one buck in my lifetime, and it was pathetic. It's not about the prize to me it is about the sport, and the food. I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything just curious on your thoughts.

I personally get frustrated of the stereotyping of the hunters. The majority of hunters are safe and have been through a Hunter education class to impliment saftey.

I think this is, as with so many topics/hobbies/etc the problem of a handful of idiots, punks, whatever, who give the rest of the group a bad name.

Kudos to you - I tend to admire those who hunt and eat their kills, rather than the trophy hunters - another table-slapping contest with animal heads, it drives me crazy.

 

[Lisa]

I grew up in a very redneck community, and all too often I'd see people go hunting just for the sake of hunting, or because it was some macho thing to do. We actually got days off in High School for deer season and duck season. I don't have a problem honestly with people who actually use what they hunt (btw, venison sausage is awesome!), but the (explative deleted) good'ol boys who go out with the largest and most powerful firearm they can carry just for the sake of going out irritate me. In my personal experience, hunters like Ryno are few these days, but YMMV.

OUMoose,

I totally understand where you are coming from. My husband and his Dad have hunted together for years. We eat what ever they hunt. In our area many hunters from across North America come to hunt purely for the "treasure" as opposed to the feeding of their families. About 5 years ago my father in law shot a rather large Buck. When word of his trophy got out into the community, he had a few phone calls from non local hunters offering him cash for the head so they could take it home and claim to have shot it themselves. My father in law had a few not so nice words to tell every single one of them

But back on topic.

upnorthkyosa asked:

Are these types of tragedies becoming more common? Would more gun control measures prevent these types of things from occuring? What can be done to cut the occurence of these types of tragedies

Education, Education, Education! Educating our youth on firearms. Hunter's safety courses on how to handle weapons properly. Making every hunter, gun handler, etc. responsible for the safe keeping and usage of their firearm and most of all making sure that those that use them improperly and violently see the full extent of the law. That IMHO is what needs to be done.

I will get off my soapbox now... please continue.

:soapbox:

 

[Rynocerous]

I think this is, as with so many topics/hobbies/etc the problem of a handful of idiots, punks, whatever, who give the rest of the group a bad name.

Kudos to you - I tend to admire those who hunt and eat their kills, rather than the trophy hunters - another table-slapping contest with animal heads, it drives me crazy.

Cheers, nice to hear. Anyways I'm finished lunch and heading back out. Thanks for posting back so soon.

Ryan

 

[Cruentus]

On to the discussion at hand...

Gun control will not stop incidences like these. If that guy had an SKS (I have one myself so trust me on this, I doubt your hunting deer with a 39mm bullet), then he wasn't there to hunt deer. And guess what...if guns were banned, he'd still be able to get an SKS or something like it on the street illegally.

Gun control only prevents law abiding citizens from protecting themselves. If those who tragically died had their wits and luck about them, they'd at least have had the option of shooting back and stopping the assaulter from continuing his rampage. If guns were "controlled," then they wouldn't have even had that option.

You want an answer for preventing incidences like these? Crime control is the answer, not gun control. I would say that you actually make it easier and less intrussive for the law abiding citizens to own guns, and work towards removing the guns from criminals by cracking down on the black market. The more intrusive gun laws are on law abiding citizens, the more it propigates an unregulated black market where criminals can get their hands on these things.

My 2 cents...

:mp5: :ultracool

 

[Adept]

If that guy had an SKS (I have one myself so trust me on this, I doubt your hunting deer with a 39mm bullet)

I'm not real flash on my gun calibre conversions, but isn't the 7.62 the same as a 30.06? The 30.06 is a very popular calibre for deer hunting in Australia, but then I suppose a Sambar is quite a bit bigger than a Whitetail.