Vertical Outward vs. Extended Outward Blocks

[MJS]

Curious to hear everyones thoughts on the vertical outward block. I would think it would be more practical when blocking a straight punch, to use the inward block, and for a hook punch, the extended outward. For me, its feels much stronger.

Thoughts?

 

[Blindside]

In general I agree, but against straight punches I usually use inward blocks. The only time VOB really come into play in my self defense is versus grabs, and that is more like related motion rather than actual execution of a block. Extended outward and inward feels much more instinctual to me, I essentially never use a VOB in sparring, but inward and EOB are very common.

Lamont

 

[JamesB]

Curious to hear everyones thoughts on the vertical outward block. I would think it would be more practical when blocking a straight punch, to use the inward block, and for a hook punch, the extended outward. For me, its feels much stronger.
Thoughts?

When you said "inward block" did you really mean "vertical-outward" as this was the subject of your post? I'm guessing you did...I see the choice of block dicated by what stance you happen to be in. The majority of people would favour their right-side (strongest side) so the blocks would be with the right arm, from a right-neutral-bow.

Having said that I get the impression that there is a large variation between schools as to how the basics are actually performed and what emphasis is placed on them in a technique....so for some people an outward-extended might be preferred to an outward-vertical, purely because of the way they execute their basics, regardless of which would actually be the most effective.

In particular there seems to be variation as to how people perform the outward-extended...some use the "teapot spout" formation of the arm in a sweeping outward-horizontal motion, whilst others choose a vertical alignment in their arm. Understanding these two variations is quite difficult I think if one has only been exposed to one way.

So this is how I execute these blocks:

My outward-vertical block first rises up so that my forearm is parallel to the ground, my elbow at shoulder height. My shoulder then rotates outwards so that my forearm rises to vertical, at the same time my forearm also rotates outward, so that the palm of my hand rotates back towards me....all this time my elbow is inline with my shoulder joint.

I see this type of block being effective against a straight-punch as you say. "Unfurling Crane" uses this as the first block, at least the way I do it

I execute an outward-extended by first transitioning through an outward-vertical. I then rotate my shoulder outwards so that my right elbow is directly inline with both my shoulders (i.e. directly to the side of my body-structure) I then rotate my forearm so it is also aligned the same way as my body (i.e. little-finger farthest away), stabbing my forearm out to form the outward-extended. At the time my block connects with it's target (i.e. the attacker's arm for this discussion) my whole arm is in a vertical alignment, there is no horizontal motion at all - purely an outward+downward hammering motion.

Using the clock principle, I would say that my outward-extended is executed to about 1 o'clock. I would use this block against a hooking punch. My target for this block is the inside of the attacker's arm at the bicep, hitting this target straight-on at 90 degrees. I don't see this block being nearly as effective against a straight-punch as it would just glance off+up the arm towards the inside of the shoulder....hmm maybe this would be ok I'm not so sure now.

However I think the range of the attack would be a factor in what block you would use.

Taking a hooking-punch attack. If the attacker was very close I would use the outward-extended and block at the bicep, halting the attack so that the attacker's body-frame was wide-open.

If the attacker was further away my outward-extended would not reach as far as his bicep. And I would have to over-rotate my shoulder to block the forearm. So I would simply use an outward-vertical, blocking on the inside of the forearm or even at the wrist.

But really I think it really depends on how one performs these blocks, what range you are dealing with, and also what attack you perceive is coming next.

james

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have come to generaly consider the verticle outward to be any thing you ckeck on the return motion and extended outward to be the extension back to outward motion. Doc pointed out on another thread that this extension is simply an inward block if you look at it from another angle (9 and 3:00). If this is the case then the transition is crucial.
Sean

 

[MJS]

When you said "inward block" did you really mean "vertical-outward" as this was the subject of your post? I'm guessing you did...I see the choice of block dicated by what stance you happen to be in. The majority of people would favour their right-side (strongest side) so the blocks would be with the right arm, from a right-neutral-bow.

No, I was referring to an inward block. Sorry for the confusion. I tend to keep my hands up in more of a boxing style. Therefore, it does not seem natural to me, when blocking a straight punch, to move my arm across my body, and then come back across to perform the block, when its quicker to do an inward block.

Taking a hooking-punch attack. If the attacker was very close I would use the outward-extended and block at the bicep, halting the attack so that the attacker's body-frame was wide-open.

If the attacker was further away my outward-extended would not reach as far as his bicep. And I would have to over-rotate my shoulder to block the forearm. So I would simply use an outward-vertical, blocking on the inside of the forearm or even at the wrist.

But really I think it really depends on how one performs these blocks, what range you are dealing with, and also what attack you perceive is coming next.

james

When you say very close, how close are you talking? If you're talking more in a clinch range, the bicep or shoulder stop would come into play. For the longer range, hitting in the forearm area is my usual target. Sword of Destruction for example is hitting in that area.

Mike

 

[jdinca]

Curious to hear everyones thoughts on the vertical outward block. I would think it would be more practical when blocking a straight punch, to use the inward block, and for a hook punch, the extended outward. For me, its feels much stronger.

Thoughts?

Yes, body mechanics wise, the inward block is the stronger of the two. as you probably know, which one you use depends on what side the punch is coming from, opponents position and what you're going to do after the block, etc. Do you want the punching arm to go across the attacker's body so he can't respond with the other arm, or do you want to open up his core for some body shots, with the potential of the other arm coming into play. But, the purpose of the block is to keep you from getting hit in the head, so all a block has to to is move a punch to the side a few inches to be effective. "Soft hand" blocks are very effective for this and are more speed than power.

The outward extended block does have more power but it's also going to change the body reaction of the attacker. The above points come into play.

Good question.

 

[Doc]

When you said "inward block" did you really mean "vertical-outward" as this was the subject of your post? I'm guessing you did...I see the choice of block dicated by what stance you happen to be in. The majority of people would favour their right-side (strongest side) so the blocks would be with the right arm, from a right-neutral-bow.

Having said that I get the impression that there is a large variation between schools as to how the basics are actually performed and what emphasis is placed on them in a technique....so for some people an outward-extended might be preferred to an outward-vertical, purely because of the way they execute their basics, regardless of which would actually be the most effective.

In particular there seems to be variation as to how people perform the outward-extended...some use the "teapot spout" formation of the arm in a sweeping outward-horizontal motion, whilst others choose a vertical alignment in their arm. Understanding these two variations is quite difficult I think if one has only been exposed to one way.

So this is how I execute these blocks:

My outward-vertical block first rises up so that my forearm is parallel to the ground, my elbow at shoulder height. My shoulder then rotates outwards so that my forearm rises to vertical, at the same time my forearm also rotates outward, so that the palm of my hand rotates back towards me....all this time my elbow is inline with my shoulder joint.

I see this type of block being effective against a straight-punch as you say. "Unfurling Crane" uses this as the first block, at least the way I do it

I execute an outward-extended by first transitioning through an outward-vertical. I then rotate my shoulder outwards so that my right elbow is directly inline with both my shoulders (i.e. directly to the side of my body-structure) I then rotate my forearm so it is also aligned the same way as my body (i.e. little-finger farthest away), stabbing my forearm out to form the outward-extended. At the time my block connects with it's target (i.e. the attacker's arm for this discussion) my whole arm is in a vertical alignment, there is no horizontal motion at all - purely an outward+downward hammering motion.

Using the clock principle, I would say that my outward-extended is executed to about 1 o'clock. I would use this block against a hooking punch. My target for this block is the inside of the attacker's arm at the bicep, hitting this target straight-on at 90 degrees. I don't see this block being nearly as effective against a straight-punch as it would just glance off+up the arm towards the inside of the shoulder....hmm maybe this would be ok I'm not so sure now.

However I think the range of the attack would be a factor in what block you would use.

Taking a hooking-punch attack. If the attacker was very close I would use the outward-extended and block at the bicep, halting the attack so that the attacker's body-frame was wide-open.

If the attacker was further away my outward-extended would not reach as far as his bicep. And I would have to over-rotate my shoulder to block the forearm. So I would simply use an outward-vertical, blocking on the inside of the forearm or even at the wrist.

But really I think it really depends on how one performs these blocks, what range you are dealing with, and also what attack you perceive is coming next.

james

Very good sir. Clearly you have an excellent teacher.

 

[Doc]

Yes, body mechanics wise, the inward block is the stronger of the two. as you probably know, which one you use depends on what side the punch is coming from, opponents position and what you're going to do after the block, etc. Do you want the punching arm to go across the attacker's body so he can't respond with the other arm, or do you want to open up his core for some body shots, with the potential of the other arm coming into play. But, the purpose of the block is to keep you from getting hit in the head, so all a block has to to is move a punch to the side a few inches to be effective. "Soft hand" blocks are very effective for this and are more speed than power.

The outward extended block does have more power but it's also going to change the body reaction of the attacker. The above points come into play.

Good question.

All of the blocks have the same structural integrity with no disparity between them when properly executed, therefore one is not stronger than another in use.

 

[Doc]

Doc pointed out on another thread that this extension is simply an inward block if you look at it from another angle (9 and 3:00). If this is the case then the transition is crucial.
Sean

You are correct. The transition is everything.

 

[JamesB]

No, I was referring to an inward block. Sorry for the confusion. I tend to keep my hands up in more of a boxing style. Therefore, it does not seem natural to me, when blocking a straight punch, to move my arm across my body, and then come back across to perform the block, when its quicker to do an inward block.

Ah I see....in that case I'd agree....if the configuration of your arms are already in that position then it makes sense to use the block which can move into position quicker.

So I guess you were really asking, "would you prefer to block on the outside of the attacker's arm with in inward block, or on the inside of the arm with an outward block"....

each method creates different opportunities and presumably also depends on how the attacker's feet are positioned too...i.e. was the attacker in a "reverse" stance when he threw the first punch, what is the predicted follow-up going to be etc..

When you say very close, how close are you talking? If you're talking more in a clinch range, the bicep or shoulder stop would come into play. For the longer range, hitting in the forearm area is my usual target. Sword of Destruction for example is hitting in that area.
Mike

well I guess the range depends on how one controls the distance between themselves+attacker. If you step back (away) out of range then the forearm target would seem the obvious (only?) choice. If you moved in towards the attacker as he moved towards you then you would be able to stop the attack much earlier by blocking to the upper arm and control the attacker's body frame much more effectively.

james

 

[JamesB]

Very good sir. Clearly you have an excellent teacher.

thankyou Sir, yes I certainly have a great teacher, of that there is no doubt

 

[MJS]

Ah I see....in that case I'd agree....if the configuration of your arms are already in that position then it makes sense to use the block which can move into position quicker.

This is just what I found best for me due to the way I'm holding my hands. I suppose this will differ depending on the hand position.

So I guess you were really asking, "would you prefer to block on the outside of the attacker's arm with in inward block, or on the inside of the arm with an outward block"....

Yes. I'm just looking for everyones thoughts, feedback, etc. There have been many excellent replies! Depending on what my goal is, I have blocked on the inner side of the arm, I'm just going about it in a different way.

well I guess the range depends on how one controls the distance between themselves+attacker. If you step back (away) out of range then the forearm target would seem the obvious (only?) choice. If you moved in towards the attacker as he moved towards you then you would be able to stop the attack much earlier by blocking to the upper arm and control the attacker's body frame much more effectively.

Agreed.

 

[jdinca]

All of the blocks have the same structural integrity with no disparity between them when properly executed, therefore one is not stronger than another in use.

Then we may be talking about different blocks. To me, a basic outward block starts with the fist face down, arm across the body, swings up past the face as the fist rotates inward. The block stops the arm is straight off the shoulder and 90 degrees to the body.

Maybe it's just me but this block doesn't feel nearly as strong as an inward block or an outward extended block.

 

[Doc]

Then we may be talking about different blocks. To me, a basic outward block starts with the fist face down, arm across the body, swings up past the face as the fist rotates inward. The block stops the arm is straight off the shoulder and 90 degrees to the body.

Maybe it's just me but this block doesn't feel nearly as strong as an inward block or an outward extended block.

Your description sounds fine sir, it is your statement I disagree with. Technically and anatomically, all basic blocks are actually the same. The only significant difference is their relationship to the torso and the application. The upper and lower portions of the arm essentially maintain the same physical relationship and proportions relative to each other throughout. Of course in a forum such as this, the finite execution can only be discussed in general terms without the ability to lay "hands on" to illustrate and instruct the point. If one block is stronger than another, then then I can only surmise there is a glitch somewhere in your execution matrix.

 

[jdinca]

Your description sounds fine sir, it is your statement I disagree with. Technically and anatomically, all basic blocks are actually the same. The only significant difference is their relationship to the torso and the application. The upper and lower portions of the arm essentially maintain the same physical relationship and proportions relative to each other throughout. Of course in a forum such as this, the finite execution can only be discussed in general terms without the ability to lay "hands on" to illustrate and instruct the point. If one block is stronger than another, then then I can only surmise there is a glitch somewhere in your execution matrix.

I agree it's difficult to discuss finer points without being able to see what you're talking about. I'm going to have to play with both blocks and see if I can figure out what's different. Thanks again for your input!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Then we may be talking about different blocks. To me, a basic outward block starts with the fist face down, arm across the body, swings up past the face as the fist rotates inward. The block stops the arm is straight off the shoulder and 90 degrees to the body.

Maybe it's just me but this block doesn't feel nearly as strong as an inward block or an outward extended block.

Try that with the palm toward your body to start and you will feel its relation to the uppercutt. You will feel your arm become compact a lot sooner, a sense of directional harmony will set in, ect.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Try that with the palm toward your body to start and you will feel its relation to the uppercutt. You will feel your arm become compact a lot sooner, a sense of directional harmony will set in, ect.
Sean

Actually that won't work, and has the opposite effect of recruiting max structure.

 

[jdinca]

Okay, did inward and outward blocks on a pad today and, properly executed, they felt about the same in power. Go figure, Doc was right.

Next question on the power of the blocks. As the inward block goes through 180 degrees of torque, and the outward block only 90, do you feel that even though both blocks feel just as powerful, that the inward block could be more powerful do to the extra torque?

 

[Doc]

Okay, did inward and outward blocks on a pad today and, properly executed, they felt about the same in power. Go figure, Doc was right.

Next question on the power of the blocks. As the inward block goes through 180 degrees of torque, and the outward block only 90, do you feel that even though both blocks feel just as powerful, that the inward block could be more powerful do to the extra torque?

Anatomically sir, they are the same block and utilize the same muscle/skeletal recruitment in execution. Touch of Death (Sean) and I had this conversation previously and I think he can help you with that one.

They both are "equally as strong in execution," however the outward actually has the additional stability along the radial line of the shoulder reference points in "static" tests. But in execution done correctly, no difference.

Note: the torque for both is the same as well.

 

[jdinca]

Note: the torque for both is the same as well.

Your other points are well taken. Slight confusion on the torque as the inward block we use goes from fist facing away from you to fist in, 180 degrees of rotation. With the outward starting fist down and finishing fist facing in, it only goes through 90 degrees of rotation. On the surface, it would appear more torque is generated on the inward block as a result.