Ustw..... Ata......

[NW Boiler]

In no way do I mean to stir any pot with this one!! I would simply like to hear thoughts from the collective.

I was just browsing and came across the mission of the USTW.
"The mission of the United States Taekwondo Won (USTW) is to meet four goals. First, the USTW will promote Taekwondo as a martial art. Second, the USTW will provide, for the first time in the United States, a uniform and equitable dan promotion standard and certification on a national and local level. Third, the USTW will fill a dangerous void in the martial arts in this country by creating and applying a uniform and adequate standard for certification of Taekwondo instructors in the United States. Finally, the USTW will develop a uniform dojang curriculum and develop dojang business operations seminars."

As a memeber of the ATA, it seems that the main objective of the ATA (below) are in the same line with the USTW, Promotion of Taekwondo at a standardized level.

The American Taekwondo Association (ATA) is the premier North American organization dedicated to the martial arts discipline of taekwondo, and is the founding organization of other international affiliates that include the World Traditional Taekwondo Union (WTTU) and the Songahm Taekwondo Federation (STF). Counting both the U.S. and worldwide, our organizations oversee over 1,500 schools and clubs, and we are beginning to register over 300,000 members.

Since the first class was taught many years ago, the focus of our program has remained the same: to provide students the highest quality martial arts instruction available in a safe and positive learning environment that people of all ages can enjoy. Our instructors combine excellent student instructor ratios with state of the art training facilities. This has helped establish ATA schools and clubs as the leaders in the martial arts industry. Each instructor is a graduate of an instructor program that represents more than thirty years of research and development. He or she will be with you every step of the way to help you reach your individual goals (and maybe even reach some new goals you never before thought possible).


So I guess my question is this: Why all the garblygook obout the different organizations?

I chose these two organizations only because I am familiar with ATA and I came across the USTW mission. Please Understand I in no way have any malicious intent!!


Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[Disco]

So I guess my question is this: Why all the garblygook obout the different organizations?

I'm still somewhat vague on what you really are looking for, but as for the garblygook........., nothing more than selling hype. As far as I can see, all the organizations are in the running for your money, for all they honestly focus on is the "sport" aspect. Using your 2 examples, the ATA and the USTW. There are threads pertaining to the ATA that can be reviewed, but surfice to say, they are not held in high regard. The USTW is nothing more than a reformulation of the USTU by people who were at one time with the USTU.

 

[NW Boiler]

There are threads pertaining to the ATA that can be reviewed, but surfice to say, they are not held in high regard. The USTW is nothing more than a reformulation of the USTU by people who were at one time with the USTU.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100% with you that each and every organization is trying to get your money. By garblygook, I meant exactly the response that you gave, "There are threads pertaining to the ATA that can be reviewed, but surfice to say, they are not held in high regard." Let me guess, you are either a WTF or ITF practioner.... I guess I just don't understand the bitching and groaning about this org. and that org. when they are truely all the same. Seems like the majority on this forum are just unhappy people looking for a place to *****!

 

[Disco]

you are either a WTF or ITF practioner.... I guess I just don't understand the bitching and groaning about this org. and that org. when they are truely all the same. Seems like the majority on this forum are just unhappy people looking for a place to *****!

:idunno: Now I'm really confused; You started this thread by asking a question and it was answered , somewhat........... Then you come back to slam people because the answer wasen't to your liking.

%-} Arrrrr Matey, methinks we have a :feedtroll

 

[NW Boiler]

First, I wish to apologize! My intent was not to slam you personally in anyway! You did answer my question and I thank you!

My fruustration lies with an air of arrogance between the practioners of different organizations (none excluded). I feel that being a martail artist (regardless of style) demands that one be humble and non-judgemental. As you can see I have plenty of room for improvement, as we all do, in this area.

I came to this forum looking for productive discussion about an art that we all enjoy and practice. I simply wish that we could all get along without taking pot shots at what each other practice (you in no way took any pot shots).

I guess I am just trying to understand why such a potentailly valuable foorum for us all seems to have drifted off course.

Agian my sincere apologies!

 

[terryl965]

NW Boiler, I totally agree with you as martial artist in general we should always respect each other art and there own abilities as a martial artist, but in today society we are tought only to respect those that come from a area of expertise that they know, everything else is worthless!!!! I my self do not believe that way here at my school we respect everybody and that is how I was tought in the 60's and 70's, as far as I can see now adays the term Martial Artist is held out for us old timers, now a days you are either tkd, karate, itf, wtf, ustu, ustw ata, pka the new one not the one from the 80's and 90's,you must belong somewhere or you are not precieved as a good or should I say a great student of the arts, you notice I said student because in the martial arts you never ever limit yourself from learning, everyday I learn something new from somebody sometimes it is a stranger other time it's a beginner student or a parent that brings something to the table. I believe the arts in general has become to commerciaized, it has become a sport not a art anymore. Please do not get me wrong organization are needed in sports but they have to put aside there differences and come together as martial artist. (Not out to make the quick almitty dollars)
God Bless America

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well, I said it before and I'll say it again: Organizations aren't horrible; its the instructors. I take ATA TKD, and I think it's great. We do Grappling, Joint Locks, TKD(full cirriculum), and other stuff. My instructors are dang good. It doesn't matter what MA you take, it all depends on what person owns and instructs the school. Not all ATA schools stink. People buy constantly and some do pop up like McDojo's, aside from the schools get too big. But ATA , ITF, WTF, USTW, USTU, WTTF, STF, and other TKD orgs can be one and the same. Bad instructors make bad schools(ok, maybe not all the time, but mostly). Good Instructors make good schools, most of the time. Doesn't matter what org it's from; it only matters who bought it, teaches it, and manages it.

:asian:

 

[terryl965]

Well, I said it before and I'll say it again: Organizations aren't horrible; its the instructors. I take ATA TKD, and I think it's great. We do Grappling, Joint Locks, TKD(full cirriculum), and other stuff. My instructors are dang good. It doesn't matter what MA you take, it all depends on what person owns and instructs the school. Not all ATA schools stink. People buy constantly and some do pop up like McDojo's, aside from the schools get too big. But ATA , ITF, WTF, USTW, USTU, WTTF, STF, and other TKD orgs can be one and the same. Bad instructors make bad schools(ok, maybe not all the time, but mostly). Good Instructors make good schools, most of the time. Doesn't matter what org it's from; it only matters who bought it, teaches it, and manages it.

:asian:

Shaolinwolf you are exactly right instructors do make the school, but organization make up the rules for that school to follow (if they so desire). Good instructors will always be there in one from or another it is a matter of how many are around 10 yrs from now, we need dignity back in the martial arts, not money hungry so called instructors. Like a great man once said, student do not make the great grade themself, but teacher make great student. we need to remember those teacher who keep learning so they can keep teaching at a high level. A man stops living when he stops learning!!!!

 

[Disco]

NW Boiler, no problem..... I didn't take it personal. But while the subject has been opened, allow me to make an observation. The ATA is an organization for one particular style of TKD. Nothing wrong with that and as has been pointed out, a lot depends on the person running the school. On the other hand, the ITF and WTF are governing bodies for varied styles of TKD. As for the USTU, USTW, etc., they also have an open style policy, but on a localized basis. The bottom line for all these organizations, regardless of their particular hype, is the allmighty dollar. Otherwise there would not be such a proliferation of them. On one TKD link site, there were over 120 organizations listed. There is another thread (Future of TKD), that may be of interest and may answer further questions that you may have. I can understand your frustrations, but as with anything else in life, were dealing with egos and personal pride. For my own sense of mental health, I focus on my training and what works for me. Everyone else is entitled to their own opinion and what works for them. It would be a very dull world if we all acted and thought alike....

 

[NW Boiler]

It would be a very dull world if we all acted and thought alike....

Exactly my point! Well said!

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Yes, I understand that Terry... and I agree. Rules do govern to an extent, but being there are well over 1200-1500 schools, do you really think they can keep tabs on ATA. Even in other organizations. As far as testings, receiving belts and yada yada legal stuff with rules, that stands. But with individual schools from orgs, it's hard to keep track of all the going ons.

 

[terryl965]

Very well put shoalinwolf very well said

 

[Fortis]

I agree that instructors make the school and not necessarily the organization they follow. When I think organizations and consistency are useful is when an individual has to move around a lot and can't stay at the same school for years on end. It's nice to know when you visit a Dojang (yes, I know many of them will let you observe or take classes first) that what you've learned will translate as much as possible except for the obvious differences in instructor style. Plus, consistency throughout an art makes for stronger tradition IMHO.

 

[Shu2jack]

This is coming from an ATA student:

I do agree that a lot of times people perceive other martial arts and organizations as "bad" just because it is not their own organization. Perhaps they heard a few bad things about the organization or met a few bad students that belong to a certain organization. Unless you have taken the time (years) to train in a style and work in an organization to get a feel and understanding of each organization's goals and methods, then you can not and should not make judgement.

Comparing the ATA to the ITF and the WTF is like comparing apples and oranges.

The ITF and WTF, like Disco said, are organizations for varied styles of TKD. Therefore how they run things and their goals must be different than those of the ATA. Because the ATA is one style, it is easy to standardized everything. Everyone in the ATA (around 300,000 people) is a student to one person: The Grand Master. This is because our organization is set up in a militaristic manner. My students have me as an instructor. My instructor is a Master in our organization. His instructor is a Chief Master. His instructor is the Grand Master. Since everyone in the ATA can trace their "instructor lineage" up through the ranks to the Grand Master, it is easy to control everything. Any organization that is going to standardize TKD as a whole in this country is doomed to fail I believe. No loyalty among the different "factions/styles" of TKD and not many are willing to change their ways.

Also, the goals of the ATA differ. In the past decade the ATA has transformed itself into a family organization and a way to help people improve as whole through TKD. If I wanted to help my child grow, learn, and learn "traditional values" in a positive environment, then I would choose the ATA, hands down because that is their goal. If I wanted to learn how to purely fight, I would not choose the ATA because that is not their goal anymore. Go back to the ATA of the '60s-'80s. The ATA teaches valid self-defense and what students learn works, how ever we are losing the attitude needed in a fight. Like everyone else has said, it goes back to the instructors.

 

[Marginal]

This is coming from an ATA student:

I do agree that a lot of times people perceive other martial arts and organizations as "bad" just because it is not their own organization. Perhaps they heard a few bad things about the organization or met a few bad students that belong to a certain organization. Unless you have taken the time (years) to train in a style and work in an organization to get a feel and understanding of each organization's goals and methods, then you can not and should not make judgement.

Still, when you hear stories about the ATA trying to take an instructor's home away from him because he was teaching from his house, and the ATA claimed that they were entitled to do whatever they wished with an Official (tm) ATA school... I don't think "Well, the ATA was probably in the right."

The ITF and WTF, like Disco said, are organizations for varied styles of TKD. Therefore how they run things and their goals must be different than those of the ATA.

It's hard to claim even that. Many of the organizations you've painted with a broad brush there do in fact have standardized cirriculims that hold true across the org regardless of the minor differences in style.

Because the ATA is one style, it is easy to standardized everything. Everyone in the ATA (around 300,000 people) is a student to one person: The Grand Master.

Every TKD association can claim the same thing. The ATA's not unique in that respect.

 

[Han-Mi]

It's all political and monitary. But who cares, as long as that stuff doesn't disrupt your training. My biggest beef is that people actually have set curriculums months in advance, That's no fun. What if you get a hankerin for somethin else? I wanted to try out my cousin's school, to see what they were teaching him, but they wouldn't let me because it would disrupt the curriculum. That upset me. So I took it upon myself to trian my cousin a little extra just in case. The other thing is that whole thing about state of the art facilities. Who cares, some of the best training is done with nothing but another person or a heavy bag. I like all that other stuff too, but nothing replaces a good partner.

 

[Shu2jack]

Still, when you hear stories about the ATA trying to take an instructor's home away from him because he was teaching from his house, and the ATA claimed that they were entitled to do whatever they wished with an Official (tm) ATA school... I don't think "Well, the ATA was probably in the right."

I do not know the details or if this is true. From what you have just told me and from what I know about how to start an ATA school and the legal/business side of things I would have to say that the ATA would be right and the instructor was being stupid on how he went about running his school. But, neither of us knows what exactly happened. It is wrong of me to accuse the instructor of being wrong or wrong of someone to accuse the ATA of being wrong. We don't have all the facts.

It's hard to claim even that. Many of the organizations you've painted with a broad brush there do in fact have standardized cirriculims that hold true across the org regardless of the minor differences in style.

I did not say they didn't have standardized curriculums. I was merely saying that our three organizations (ITF, WTF, ATA) have slightly different situations and ways of doing things. So it is unfair to compare the three. Judge them by how well they accomplish what they are trying to accomplish. I do not know what the goals and methods of the ITF or WTF are, but I highly doubt every organization wants exactly the same thing or will employ exactly the same methods to achieve it.

Every TKD association can claim the same thing. The ATA's not unique in that respect.

Never said it wasn't. Perhaps I did not say it well, but I think that because the ATA has strong central control and that everything is so close knit that it is easy to exercise tight control over everything.

 

[Han-Mi]

Never said it wasn't. Perhaps I did not say it well, but I think that because the ATA has strong central control and that everything is so close knit that it is easy to exercise tight control over everything.

BLAH..... Tight control over everything. How is the art supposed to grow. How are you supposed to develop your own style. How are you supposed to practice other arts in the persuit of complete control in a fight no matter what position you and your opponent are in.
Sorry, I'm sure you weren't quite talking about that. But, I don't like the idea of an outside source controlling what and how you teach. Loose requirements with high standards is the way to go. And who cares about stardized rank within TKD, there are still a thousand other styles that won't be compatible.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

BLAH..... Tight control over everything. How is the art supposed to grow. How are you supposed to develop your own style. How are you supposed to practice other arts in the persuit of complete control in a fight no matter what position you and your opponent are in.
Sorry, I'm sure you weren't quite talking about that. But, I don't like the idea of an outside source controlling what and how you teach. Loose requirements with high standards is the way to go. And who cares about stardized rank within TKD, there are still a thousand other styles that won't be compatible.

I'm not quite sure that's what he meant.

In our ATA TKD school we have(I'll say it again) Jointlocks(Aikido), self-defense, grappling(juijitsu), and other various styles incorporated into our cirriculum along with a full cirriculum of TKD. Some schools teach Krav Maga and other types. We aren't just limited to one style of MA, though we do teach TKD as the main MA. I just spent like an hour grappling after classes were over. Heck we do boxing on occasion, but only between instructors, and occasionally Students. Kickboxing is incorporated sometimes too. Our school does basics, but alot of schools do kickboxing. So, in conclusion, I don't think that we are limited at all.

:asian:

 

[NW Boiler]

Shaolin,
Well said! It seems that there is a gross misconception about what we practice ....... Thats a bummer.