American Taekwondo Association

cali_tkdbruin

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The ATA is a representative Taekwondo organization among American Taekwondoists here in the States. From what I've heard and read, this organization has not been very representative of us Taekwondoists here in the U.S.

I keep hearing about ATA dojangs just signing up students, and delivering crappy instruction, and offering contracts for 2-3 year black belt programs, and taking fiscally advantage of TKD students.

All I know is that my beloved Art, TKD, takes such a hit from these types of reports, and other non-TKD martial artists just take this and run with it. So why do we need need to feed them with this? I'm not blasting the ATA, I would just like to hear, and read the ATA side of this. I know we have WTF, and ITF practioners here, what about the ATA practitioners?

A large majority of non-Taekwondoists all ready disrespect my ART, so why do we need to add fodder to the naysayers. ATA step up, let's hear you.
 
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MountainSage

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Bruin,
I'm WTF, but I have a thought you might have missed in your question about ATA. Why was there a need for another TKD organization in the USA? I have seen a number of websites and have come to believe that ATA is much like any other system of TKD in that there are good ones and bad ones. IMHO ATA is an attempt to remove the Korean poltics from a MA that could be much better than it is allowed to be. The present format of WTF TKD seem to be a stripped down version for the purpose of getting the most BB possible in the shortest time with sparring skills. If a person is willing to spend some time searching for the material that has been removed from the curiculum and learn those skills, I believe that the TKD jokes would stop.

Mountain Sage
 

Marginal

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The ATA seems to be modeled not on really teaching TKD, but on selling TKD as a product. How many other TKD organizations have numbers of students taught as a requisite for dan promotion? Just little things like that where headcount in a school's focused on over what goes on in the school is rather disquieting...
 
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MountainSage

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Marginal, hate to break this to you, but it is the same way in WTF and ITF, it's just not talked about. For a Master to promote, he/she must promote black belts and keep promoting to improve their position in the organization. The more students and promotions the higher standing that person has. Sorry to burst your bubble, but all the MA are similar.

Mountain Sage
 

celtic bhoy

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It's the same here. We tend to get a cut in waiting time between gradings if we attend more seminars. Or gradings are available on a monthly basis at your own club. It all keeps SOME students for the wrong reasons.

Happy student has a black belt in double quick time, happy instructor has another happy black under his wing. Also the association they are part of have plenty of revenue coming in. Everyone is happy. More students, more black belts, more business. It is business combined with pleasure.

Mountain Sage is correct in what he says, MA are similar. They sell, you buy. But there are instructors ot there who teach for the love of their art and not financial gain................somewhere.
 

Marginal

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MS: There's a difference between that and setting actual caps right in the testing requirements. That, and the other organizations don't make distinctions between a third dan with students and a third dan who has decided not to teach. ATA has started offering seperate dan ranks for the two etc.

CB: You're still here? Attending a seminar isn't really the same thing. Just takes away from the time requirement because you're putting in more class time. What's wrong with that?
 
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MountainSage

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marginal, I guess I don't have a problem with promotion caps. If caps are in place then a student better work harder than the next one to get a slot on the next test. I consider this motivation with a big stick. I also believe that a dan that teaches should get a leg up over a non-teaching dan. At my school we are required to teach those below our own grade level, no exceptions. Teaching improves the skills of upper belts and dans.

Mountain Sage
 

Marginal

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It's not really reflective of the ability of the students or the the instructor's ability. It's simply a reward for being good at marketing, which seems a poor measure for dan advancement. How does packing a classroom make you a better fighter?

All that really seems to be doing is encouraging the McDojo mentality of crank out a BB in the shortest amount of time possible regardless of whether or not they've gotten any relevant skills from their $100+ a month fees.
 
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MartialArtist

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New Guiness World Record: Kid BB at the age of 5, completed in 14:52:37
 

celtic bhoy

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Mr Marginal,

Yes I am still here.

If the normal waiting time is 6 months between 1st kup and 1st Dan, and that gets cut in half just because you turned up to a 6 hour seminar, how are you putting in more class time?

Would you really expect to be to the same standard as the man who trained religiously for the 6 months, or face facts, would you be trying to get your black belt quicker?

You are right, there is nothing wrong with using seminars to enhance your progress. But there is something wrong if you are just using seminars as a short cut.
 

Marginal

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Originally posted by celtic bhoy
Mr Marginal,

Yes I am still here.

If the normal waiting time is 6 months between 1st kup and 1st Dan, and that gets cut in half just because you turned up to a 6 hour seminar, how are you putting in more class time?

The average class is what? An hour and a half long? The actual time is usually determined by hours under instruction rather than months as I understand it. (Usually based on the presumption of the person attending two classes per week on top of that.) That seminar would be about the equivalent of two weeks worth of classes by that standard.

How exactly do these seminars work? You are implying it takes only one now, but it started out with you saying they were attending several to cut that time down.

Would you really expect to be to the same standard as the man who trained religiously for the 6 months, or face facts, would you be trying to get your black belt quicker?

That's somewhat dependent on the quality/content of the seminar, and what role it actually plays since you seem to be getting somewhat confused about just how much time they cut off the requirements etc.
 

celtic bhoy

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Firstly, I am speaking from the point of view of how we train. I can't judge how YOU train. The same as you can't judge how WE train.

We train 2 hour sessions, 3 times a week. Work it out for yourself. 1 seminar no matter how good, won't make up for that amount of time. Also we have 2 seminars a year.


(Quote)All that really seems to be doing is encouraging the McDojo mentality of crank out a BB in the shortest amount of time possible regardless of whether or not they've gotten any relevant skills from their $100+ a month fees.(Unquote)

You more or less made the same point as me only a few threads ago.
 

Marginal

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This makes less and less sense. To recap, I commented on how the ATA tends to view TKD. You said it's exactly the same market driven model all over regardless of the organization....

Now you're saying you can't judge how anyone but you trains? I'm getting off right there. Bye.
 

celtic bhoy

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Marginal, thats because peoples training can be different, but their associations motives tend to be similar.

Thanks for reminding me to be more clear in what I'm saying and sorry for confusing you. Fin.

Bye for now.
 
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ThuNder_FoOt

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Hello,

I do have some ATA experience. I have a 2nd Dan level rank (i believe it may be expired now) in the American Taekwondo Association. Although my initial Taekwondo training began with WTF, I can answer any questions to the best of my ability in regards to the ATA.

I am not currently practicing under the ATA (the reason I believe my rank may be expired), but I still do train WTF.

:asian:
 
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voxtemporalis

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It is strange that you should say that the ATA delivers crappy instruction I am currently a member of an ATA school and have been nothing but happy with the instruction that I have been given.

Yes, we do have contracts, but the contracts that I am signing are for belt promotion. The first contract that I signed stated that I would pay a certain amount of money for a certain amount of time (It was like 3 or 4 months) and then I wouldnt pay anything until I promoted out of my Camo belt. I can then sign another such similar contract, and as such I am never locked into an overly long program. I, seemingly contrary to everyone else, prefer this type of contract system. So, if it takes me 50 years to get my red belt, I would pay the same amount of money as someone who has taken 2 years to get it.

My instructor also teaches about the weakness of taekwondo and we are taught methods of compensating. We are taught grappling, weapon defense (although we are cautioned to attempt to get away first), and other such things.

Although, having said this, I have no experience with ATA schools other than my own so I wouldnt be qualified to say anything about the ATA as a whole. Anyone else have similar experiences?
 
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Disco

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I'm a little confused. How can your Dan ranking "expire"? Does the ATA issue rank certificates like a drivers lic, with a renewal date? Not trying to be a smart a**, I've just never heard of such a thing.........
:asian:
 
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voxtemporalis

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As far as I knew, they don't expire per se, but your membership to the ATA expires. You pay an anual membership fee to the ATA (25$) sort of like a gym, and it allows you to train at any ATA affiliated school.
 
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ThuNder_FoOt

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Originally posted by Disco
I'm a little confused. How can your Dan ranking "expire"? Does the ATA issue rank certificates like a drivers lic, with a renewal date? Not trying to be a smart a**, I've just never heard of such a thing.........
:asian:

Yes, it seems to be similar to a Driver's license, with an expiration date. I believe that by not reinstating my ATA membership, my Dan expires. I'm not exactly sure how it works, I haven't been to my ATA school in a long while... but I know that being a (expired) 2nd Dan, I can't attend any ATA events as such. No competitions, no TKD training, and etc. I would have to sign another contract for the term that my instructor chooses. I believe that would re-instate my Dan ranking. I would have to go through a mini-testing to show that I can still demonstrate the qualifications for 2nd Dan effeciently. I guess its the ATA's incentive to keep its students constantly participating in the art.

I know that in WTF, my Dan doesn't expire. At anytime I could take up a tournament or train without reinstating a contract. I can attend seminars, and things alike... whether I'm current or not.

I also know that the ATA dojangs are (for the most part) independantly owned, so this may be something that only a few instructors enforce... mine being one of them. Its not necessarily bad though, its a good way to keep the students training!
 

Zepp

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Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt
Yes, it seems to be similar to a Driver's license, with an expiration date. I believe that by not reinstating my ATA membership, my Dan expires. I'm not exactly sure how it works, I haven't been to my ATA school in a long while... but I know that being a (expired) 2nd Dan, I can't attend any ATA events as such. No competitions, no TKD training, and etc. I would have to sign another contract for the term that my instructor chooses. I believe that would re-instate my Dan ranking. I would have to go through a mini-testing to show that I can still demonstrate the qualifications for 2nd Dan effeciently. I guess its the ATA's incentive to keep its students constantly participating in the art.

That sounds a wee bit McDojoish if you don't mind my saying so. I understand the need for re-testing, but couldn't you just pay a membership fee directly to the organization?

A 2nd dan ranking should indicate that you have enough experience to train others (at least up until whatever rank comes before 1st dan in the ATA). What if you chose to begin teaching TKD, and you wanted your students to be affiliated with them; would they still require you to sign a contract with another instructor?
 
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