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- #21
Well, while I dont disagree, as I said in another thread, the thought of making something of yourself with an education, should be enough to make them want to go.
Using GPS To Track Kids
- Thread starter MJS
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Well, while I dont disagree, as I said in another thread, the thought of making something of yourself with an education, should be enough to make them want to go.
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- #22
Well, like I always say, how a kid acts starts at home, IMHO. I think its a good idea to use the GPS. I mean, of course, people are going to cry foul and talk about privacy, rights, etc. but if kids aren't going to school, something needs to be done, and if this is what it takes, then so be it.
Will the kid who doesn't want to go to school, but is forced to, be a PITA? Probably, but what are we supposed to do with those people? I mean, there're days when I'm sure we don't want to go to work, but we have to, otherwise...well, I don't think I need to go into detail on that. So, we have a kid who doesn't want to go. Fine...what are they going to do? Stay home all day? Hey, if someone doesn't want to go to college, fine, but at least get a HS diploma, otherwise, they really will amount to little. They'll retire from the local burger joint, where they flipped burgers for 20yrs.
Will the kid who doesn't want to go to school, but is forced to, be a PITA? Probably, but what are we supposed to do with those people? I mean, there're days when I'm sure we don't want to go to work, but we have to, otherwise...well, I don't think I need to go into detail on that.
So, we have a kid who doesn't want to go. Fine...what are they going to do? Stay home all day? Hey, if someone doesn't want to go to college, fine, but at least get a HS diploma, otherwise, they really will amount to little. They'll retire from the local burger joint, where they flipped burgers for 20yrs.
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- #23
Well, like I always say, how a kid acts starts at home, IMHO. I think its a good idea to use the GPS. I mean, of course, people are going to cry foul and talk about privacy, rights, etc. but if kids aren't going to school, something needs to be done, and if this is what it takes, then so be it.
Will the kid who doesn't want to go to school, but is forced to, be a PITA? Probably, but what are we supposed to do with those people? I mean, there're days when I'm sure we don't want to go to work, but we have to, otherwise...well, I don't think I need to go into detail on that.
I've seen kids drop out and work for ten years and suddenly "get it" and come back. They get their GEDs, go to community college for a couple of years, transfer to University and blam, they have a productive career.
Here's the thing, you can't force someone to learn. You can put a gps on a kids ankle, but that isn't going to make that kid do any better in school. The kid just doesn't want to be there...and, you know, I'm fine with letting them go, as long as we keep the doors open for them down the line if they change their minds.
Think about the change in school culture one would evoke if all the kids who didn't want to be there, just were there. All the kids who were there could learn in peace and they would have a far more worthwhile experience.
Here's a little story for you...
Last year, I worked at a large High School in a diverse low SES neighborhood. I taught one section of honors AP physics and I taught a number of other courses where I had a variety of other students. One day, my honors kids come in fuming mad. And I was like, "Hey, what's going on?"
One of the kids looked at me and was like, "You know, its nothing against you, because we like you, but it feels like you teachers spend so much time on the kids who don't want to be here that you have no time left over for us."
That's a direct quote...and I couldn't say a damn thing, because I knew that he was right.
Now, I'm not saying that kids who don't want to be in school are any better or any worse then kids who really want it. I've had lots of "bad kids" who were actually really sweet. I just think they need the time to choose and figure life out for themselves. For whatever reason, school just isn't a priority and I don't think that their is any way that a school can change that.
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- #24
And those people are exceptions. For example...when I got out of high school, everyone said to me, don't wait too long before going to college. Otherwise, you will probably never go. So, I wait a while, and finally decide to go. Needless to say, it wasn't long, I wasn't doing that well, so before I wasted anymore money, I stopped, paid my loan and got a job. I'm fortunate today, just having the HS dimploma, to have the job that I do and make the money that I do as well.
Like I said, many times, if people don't go right away, they'll be so used to not having to go, when the time comes, the interest may no longer be there. Again, it depends on the person and there are some that just may go.
So let me ask you this...if someone doesn't want to learn, if they don't want to go, what do you propose we do with those kids? Will they never amount to anything? Will they live at home until they're 80yrs old, living off their parents? Will they end up being supported by those that do work, but have to kick in for all the freebies that people get?
Hey, college isn't for everyone. But without a HS diploma, their options are going to be limited.
And thats why in pretty muchevery school out there, there are special class rooms and teachers for those with special needs. Kids with a learning disability, behavior issues, etc. Nobody is giving up on those kids, but they're seperate from the kids who do want to learn, who do want to be there, etc. and they can then learn at a different level and pace.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Just because you find the boot on your neck comfortable doesn't mean the rest of us do.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
I have nothign to hide
plus, I am not so full of myself that i think MY rights are more important than my country's safety.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
You might someday. Maybe martial arts or your faith of choice or your ancestors or your reading habits or a million other things might be banned and persecuted someday.
First of all, they aren't YOUR rights, they're EVERYONE'S. Second, I know this is going to piss you off, but I just can't help it:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Ben Franklin
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
see, i think the country is the people
and if a lojack in your kids *** saves ONE life, i am fine with it.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
:lol:
Empty Hands
Senior Master
Imprisoning all men between say 15 and 35 would save a lot more than one life. Should we do it? Taking infants away from their mothers for at least a few months would save many lives. Should we do it? A rigid police state watching the citizens at all times, enforcing behavioral and dietary restrictions would save an ***-ton of lives. Should we do it?
Where is your line?
Empty Hands
Senior Master
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- #36
This isn't supported by research. A good Adult Basic Education program that has good visibility will draw in lots of people who suddenly realize that education is important. If the program is flexible, they can get almost anyone through.
For example...when I got out of high school, everyone said to me, don't wait too long before going to college. Otherwise, you will probably never go. So, I wait a while, and finally decide to go. Needless to say, it wasn't long, I wasn't doing that well, so before I wasted anymore money, I stopped, paid my loan and got a job. I'm fortunate today, just having the HS diploma, to have the job that I do and make the money that I do as well.
Hey, that's great and I want you to know that there are a lot more people who have the same experience then you would think. According to national statistics, on average, only about 50% of HS graduates go to college. Of that group, only about 50% of that group graduate. So, that's a lot of kids who find other paths to make a living.
Maybe, maybe not. I've haven't read much about the intrinsic motivations of people who go back to school, because that's a hard subject to quantify. However, I've seen a lot of very motivated adults going back into ABEs and a lot of these same people are transitioned into local community colleges. Thus, I'm inclined to believe that if a person wants to do something, they'll do it. If not, then not.
Let them do what they need to do. Let them straighten their lives out so that school becomes more possible. Let them find another way to get the basic education they need. Let them get the life experience that may teach them that school is something important. Let them have the freedom they need to learn.
For God's sake, do not force them into a building and have the cops chase them back in if they try to escape. That's not a school, its a prison.
A GED can get you into a community college. We need to stop thinking that their is only one path for people to get an education.
A diploma is only one route.
Actually, they are not separate. The federal government mandates something called Least Restrictive Environment which means that kids who qualify for services are only given the amount of services they need and nothing more. This often means that they predominantly end up in classrooms alongside other kids. This is especially true in schools with high populations of special education students.
In my experience, special education students aren't that much of a problem. The teachers are often good advocates and mentors for the children, so they are often some of the better behaved children in the class. This isn't always the case, but its more common then not.
It's the large population of kids who fall through the cracks that are the problem. If you don't qualify for services and you aren't smart enough to take the classes with the best, most experienced teachers, then you get the boring ho-hum rumma dum dum education with all of the other kids who don't want to be there because they don't see the value in what they are learning.
So, how many GPS monitors are we going to use to keep all of these kids in check...and more importantly, do we ever take the damned things off?
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- #37
I think we agree on this. There are some that will go back and some that won't. The ones that do, are the exceptions.
Like I said, college isn't for everyone. If someone doesn't want to go, thats fine, if they do, great. I'm talking about at the least, getting the HS diploma. I look to see what jobs are out there. There are quite a few that require a college degree. There are some that say HS or GED. If someone drops out, and then honestly makes the effort to get the GED, great. I'm talking about the ones that don't. Without either of those 2, their options are going to be limited moreso.
We have a few different groups here. The group that goes to school, gets a HS diploma and gets a job. The group that gets the HS diploma, goes to college, gets a degree and gets a job. The group that quits HS, then gets a GED and either gets a job or is motivated to go to college. The group that quits and does nothing else because they hate school so much. My example to which you gave the above reply was to those that sit on their rear and do nothing. Hey, if you want to support those folks, fine, but I don't think we should be forced to. Someone loses their job and goes on unemployment, fine. But give them a set time to get a job. Don't just keep feeding them that little check forever.
GED/HS diploma...pretty much the same. Again, I'm talking about people who have neither. Are those people with no diploma or GED going to have an easy time getting a good job? A job that is going to support them? I have my doubts, but hey, I may be wrong.
So you're telling me that the honors AP students, the regular students and the special needs students are in the same class? I'm not going to comment on every school in the world, because I don't know how they're run, but where I went to school, it was seperate. If you were learning on a slower pace than others, you were in a different classroom for that particular subject.
No idea.
Yes, I'd imagine so.
Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
Because that isn't the purpose of school.
Incidentally, the reason the schools are so upset about truancy has less to do with concern for the kids and more to do with the fact that they get paid less when students don't show up. Yea Unions!
One hundred years ago, most students completed 6th grade - and then most stopped; thus, secondary school as separate from elementary school. Then the common grade to complete became 8th grade, then 9th, and finally 12th. As the common grade to complete got higher, society changed - as more students attained greater education, education became more necessary for success in the world (not absolutely necessary - there are a fair number of highly successful people who didn't complete high school); as education became more necessary, it became a sorting device - employers can choose employees who are actively in school or who have completed at least high school, while passing over those who have dropped out.
One hundred years ago, students who were not interested in, or good at school - or both - could choose to apprentice to a trade; 50 years ago, those same students could follow the vocational track, and graduate high school already trained for a trade job.
For a variety of reasons, schools have become more and more focused on tests and college preparation - and the vocational training that appealed to many kids who didn't want to go to college is falling by the wayside; programs are getting smaller and harder to get into - and there are plenty of students who want to be in them. At the same time, as the push for college prep to be the standard for high school graduation continues, this country is looking at a shortage of trained tradespeople.
School should prepare children and young adults to either continue into higher education, or to get a job immediately following graduation. Right now, there is so much generalization, so much information that is considered vital for students to learn, that those options are being lost in the rush. Tracking students is a common practice in many countries, which this country has gotten away from - and rightfully so; the methods by which students were tracked into college and vocational tracks were iffy, at best - but the emphasis on college as the be-all and end-all of ambition has taken away the options that many students had in the past, in terms of trade training, extra curricular and non-curricular options, and access to "non-academic" classes, to the detriment of a large number of students. Many students who were not "traditional" students stayed in school for trade training, or music, or art, or sports - and those programs are all being cut, which is why so many of these students are dropping out; the programs that kept them in school no longer exist, and they have no incentive to work through the difficult and/or apparently meaningless subjects that those other programs kept them coming for.
Something to consider: education is a right; Welfare is not (or should not be). As a taxpayer, I would rather pay for education than Welfare - on the theory that I would rather teach students to fish than give students fish; I find the former to be a better return on the money invested. There is also a high correlation between crime and dropping out of school - and again, I'd rather pay more for education than for more jails.
One hundred years ago, students who were not interested in, or good at school - or both - could choose to apprentice to a trade; 50 years ago, those same students could follow the vocational track, and graduate high school already trained for a trade job.
For a variety of reasons, schools have become more and more focused on tests and college preparation - and the vocational training that appealed to many kids who didn't want to go to college is falling by the wayside; programs are getting smaller and harder to get into - and there are plenty of students who want to be in them. At the same time, as the push for college prep to be the standard for high school graduation continues, this country is looking at a shortage of trained tradespeople.
School should prepare children and young adults to either continue into higher education, or to get a job immediately following graduation. Right now, there is so much generalization, so much information that is considered vital for students to learn, that those options are being lost in the rush. Tracking students is a common practice in many countries, which this country has gotten away from - and rightfully so; the methods by which students were tracked into college and vocational tracks were iffy, at best - but the emphasis on college as the be-all and end-all of ambition has taken away the options that many students had in the past, in terms of trade training, extra curricular and non-curricular options, and access to "non-academic" classes, to the detriment of a large number of students. Many students who were not "traditional" students stayed in school for trade training, or music, or art, or sports - and those programs are all being cut, which is why so many of these students are dropping out; the programs that kept them in school no longer exist, and they have no incentive to work through the difficult and/or apparently meaningless subjects that those other programs kept them coming for.
Something to consider: education is a right; Welfare is not (or should not be). As a taxpayer, I would rather pay for education than Welfare - on the theory that I would rather teach students to fish than give students fish; I find the former to be a better return on the money invested. There is also a high correlation between crime and dropping out of school - and again, I'd rather pay more for education than for more jails.
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- #40
Great post, Kacey. Here's something that's hitting to the heart of what we are talking about...
I think we need a post industrial schooling revolution.
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