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windwalker099115 145
Master of Arts
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- #81
Unlock Your Kua : Why Bone Structure Limits Your Range of Motion
- Thread starter windwalker099
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This can be an interested discussion subject. Why most Taiji people don't like to train bag work? What's your opinion on this?
Well I can't speak to anything Appledog said about humans.
Working dog breeders will tell you it's all in the genetics. If a dog is born with poorly formed hip sockets, there's nothing I've ever heard of to "fix" it. There are expensive surgeries for hip replacement etc, but even with that those dogs often developed severe arthritis. People will somewhat incorrectly say their got "got" or "developed" hip dysplasia. But that's not exactly correct. They are born dysplastic. Symptoms show up over time depending on how badly dysplastic the joints are. There are dogs born with such poorly formed joints that they can't even walk by 1 year old. Others not as severe may not show symptoms until older age. The genetics dictate how the joints are formed. Ligaments as well. Certain lines of dogs carry "loose" ligaments at young age. At six months old their rear end (hip sockets) is loose so to speak. The ligaments don't hold the ball in the socket properly. Their rear end is sort of unstable. Usually with some age and exercise the ligaments will tighten up so to speak. Other dogs are born without this issue. In the case of dogs being bred for work, all this has a major, major effect on how well and/or how long the dog performs. So good breeders track these issues in the pedigrees of dogs they're considering using for breeding. They know for a fact that the genes dictate how joints are formed. Just like color and temperament. There's something called OFA. A dog gets a couple years old they have the dogs joints x rayed. The results are sent off to be graded by OFA. Poorly graded dogs don't get bred. Showline dogs are a whole different bag of worms genetically. Showline German shepherds are currently bred for a certain type of movement ie, drive from the hips. Totally different from the working lines. It's so severe you'll see show bred dogs walking on their hocks. It's not good movement for work, but it wins in the show ring. So they keep passing the genes down for extreme angulation in the back legs. A working bred dog can get the drive from the hips to hop a six foot fence from a standing start. The more extreme examples of the show lines can't get that drive from hips. The genes dictate all of it. The genes a lot of showline breeders strive to pass on, a working dog breeder strives to stay away from at all costs.
That's just the physical aspects....temperament is a much longer discussion. As far as temperament, training can cover up flaws. But put enough stress on a dog and it always reverts back to its genetic temperament at the bottom line.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
I once posted a short video here at MT where I show the difference between Wu/Hao Whip and BKTS on a steel column and Yang's BKTS on a heavy bag. The sequence of power generation you're talking about isn't the same as either method that I showed, or as I learned them. In fact, the Yang's style BKTS has, using your terms of 'compress-release', the opposite sequence of power generation - release -> compress. But the 'compress' isn't expressed in the hands or body, or whatever. The 'compress' is pulling the energy of the impact into dantian from the feet and hands at the instant of impact. The Wu/Hao method, otoh, has the outward appearance of 'compress -> release', but the body is 'empty' at the moment of impact, and the idea is to not hit with the hand from the foot, but to bump the foot with the hand at the moment of touch/impact.
'Bag work' in that vein is merely for demonstration of those ideas and nothing else.
I've done lots of work with a heavy bag to develop circularity, lightness, maintaining contact with continuous movement/flow, 'ground path' and practicing the methods I described above using the various energies of the 8 Gates. A discussion of those ideas is for another thread perhaps. Are you interested in any of that?
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windwalker099115 145
Master of Arts
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- #85
Thanks for the info.
Humans, like other mammals, have hip structures shaped by both genetics and early development. Together, these factors can limit what someone can safely achieve later in their practice. Thereās also a lot of confusion about what āopeningā versus simple ROM actually means, and why that distinction matters.
In IMA, opening the kua is essential for conducting internal force; in other arts, greater ROM is needed for external power or performance aesthetics, Understanding one's actual structure can help to avoid pushing past what your hips are built to do.
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windwalker099115 145
Master of Arts
- Thread starter
- #86
can only speak from my own practice. There are many approaches to Taiji ā āyouāsā included ā that use methods not compatible with the way I train now.
My work follows the line of Wang Yongquan through my teacher.
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Wangās view, in brief:
"Beginners often assume Taiji is trained the same way as ordinary external force, but it isnāt. When posture and theory begin to merge, you feel the difference.
Taiji requires integrating spirit, intention, and qi into one whole. This produces a light, flexible internal strength based on the blending of intention and qi. Its essence is qi, which must stay open, empty, and dispersed ā not gathered into a single point or compressed into a local power expression."
Because of this, practices like bag work, body toughening, and hardening drills ā things I trained in other arts ā run counter to the internal method Iāve been working on for the past 20 years. They train a different kind of force.
From this perspective, itās not that Taiji people ādonāt likeā bag work ā itās that it doesnāt align with the internal strength method some lines of Taiji are trying to develop.
Another thread might be more focused,
or this one is good.....some of the drills and practices you outlined in the past were pretty good.
Hopefully you can update them with some video showing them practiced and usage...that would be cool..
Same Trick60 11
Master of Arts
The bag just hangs there kind of teasingly call you - āhey you, take your best shotā
Well thatās not very Taijiāish to be tricked into to do.
Rather then have the bag swing at you and sidestep it so not to hit you and immediately step back into its path and sidestep its backswing and so on.
Or stand in the center of where the bag naturally hangs and let the bag lean on you, then with moving/twisting upper body together with arms and hands make bag roll around you never leaning just on one point of your body, feet staying putā¦.Both methods are kind of a karate kid at the Okinawan fishing house practicing drum technique
Best Taiji method is just walk by the bag and let it hang there for some externalist to fall for its ātake your best shotā trap.
Wing Woo Gar50 11
Grandmaster
I used to have 8 small bags hanging at different heights in a rough circle. I would get them swinging and then dodge and strike as needed. I think this was more useful than just whaling on a heavy bag. Heavy bag has its uses, but used in exclusion from other methods it can teach bad habits like leaning into the bag and pushing the punch in after extension. I think it has more to offer to a pure boxer.
Marsha Larts
Blue Belt
Heavy bag offers a bit of resistance for Peng-Lu-Ji-An as it rotates and swings while working through GST sequence (for instance) from a fixed foot placement. The starting position can be anywhere from a half-step to quarter-step into the bag's plumb center and just slightly to one side depending on which side is leading, with its weight resting on the lead forearm. I like the 24 Form GST as it is linear and rotates just inside of a functional opening and closing kua. 24 form has lots of useful nuances that aren't present in the more 'classical' forms of Yang's style, that beginners can more readily understand since those things reveal themselves without someone telling beginners the What and Why - they discover it on their own. The longer forms don't offer those simple insights due to their more circular and directional subtleties that require higher levels of precision of body method.Another thread might be more focused,
or this one is good.....some of the drills and practices you outlined in the past were pretty good.
Hopefully you can update them with some video showing them practiced and usage...that would be cool..
Cloud Hands in a fixed foot placement is another sequence which, IME, beginners really get into 'against' a heavy bag. And again, 24 form Cloud Hands is more conducive to understanding the functional, natural opening and closing of the kua because that base function is different for everyone and beginners don't need to second-guess the precision since it's self-correcting as they work against the resistance that the bag provides. The turning, opening and closing is very small and the precision is self-taught with the bag being the teacher's assistant - they work within their own means and natural, functional RoM.
You don't really need to teach anyone anything if you know how to bring out what's already there.
Yeah, the exercises... Foundational stuff anyone can try, if they want
As for updates, the videos would show pretty much nothing. My practice is deep into the foundational stuff these days. I've always enjoyed that work more than all the stylistic stuff that follows it. The foundational work never gets old, and it sure doesn't get any easier.
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isshinryuronin5 4
Senior Master
That sounds like effective training. Better if they had sharp spikes on them. What? Today's practitioners are too soft
.I agree that leaning/pushing into the heavy bag is poor technique and can develop bad habits, unless you're into sport full contact like kyokushin or boxing which relies on a different power source than traditional karate.
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windwalker099115 145
Master of Arts
- Thread starter
- #91
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isshinryuronin5 4
Senior Master
Generally speaking, rather than delivering power thru body momentum and mass traveling past/thru the point of contact, Okinawan and often Japanese karate delivers power with the body mass staying more stationary, its momentum stopping just past the contact point with little follow thru. (In a punch the shoulders remain squared to the opponent and not thrown into it.) This is a simplified explanation of chinkuchi meaning the power is delivered as a point rather than along a line, if that makes any sense to you.Interesting
How would you, describe or show the difference
The difference can be seen on a heavy bag as one way the bag will move more as the strike powers its way thru it whereas the other way it will jump. Two methods, each designed to be effective within its respective system.
Prince_Alarming114 144
Senior Master
I feel a bit retarded here, what is a kua?
Wing Woo Gar50 11
Grandmaster
Donāt feel bad. Pelvis/groin/uppermost thigh/inguinal creases/connection between bottom and top/ābig hingeāā¦
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windwalker099115 145
Master of Arts
- Thread starter
- #95
Thanks.Chinkuchi is designed to drive force into an object, so a heavy bag fits the method perfectly.
Some CMA systems train the same way ā they use impact to develop that type of power.
Internal arts like Taiji are different.
What Taiji calls jin (å²) isnāt meant to smash through an object ā itās meant to enter and change a personās balance, structure, or center.
The OPās observation makes sense:
different methods create different results, training completely different types of force.
A heavy bag canāt give the right kind of feedback for that.
Instead, it forces you to tighten, brace, and hit in an external way.
Chinkuchi ā bag training builds the skill
Taiji jin ā bag training undermines the skill
So it naturally raises an interesting question:
Why is it that most non-Taiji peopleāeven highly skilled fightersācannot demonstrate the same skill sets that many Taiji practitioners can?
Prince_Alarming114 144
Senior Master
I'm reminded of how crossfit people talk about 'opening the hip explosively is almost entirely sufficient for elite athletic performance'. I can't escape the feeling that as a civilisation we are slowly groping our way towards truths that oriental civilisations have known for millenia...
Depends on your interpretation. āExternal artsā use volley jin and empty force to enter and "change a personās balance, structure or center" per NTUMA and Taichi Laboratory...
Gather and Release
Why is there not one Taiji practitioner showing a different skill set in a fight? However, there are videos showing similar skill sets as non-Taiji people.
Marin Spivak and Adam Mizner on Kua (unmute)ā¦
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windwalker099115 145
Master of Arts
- Thread starter
- #98
Thanks for the clips
No interpretation needed. Iāve felt this directly, as others haveāthis is why people stay with a teacher or continue practicing. Theyāre trying to understand or develop something they felt, not something they imagined.
As for what those clips or comments describeā¦ maybe thatās all they can do or all theyāve experienced so far.
For me (and others Iāve trained with), the experience is quite different.
Touched or not touched, the process behind it works the same wayāthe only difference is the degree of skill, which depends on practice and experience, just like any other discipline.
The same question has been asked about CMA in general:
Why train one skill set if it never seems to show up in a fight?
Thatās something every CMA practitioner eventually has to answer for themselves.
I spent many years working through my own questions on this.
As for IMA, there are people who fight ā just not publicly, and not on YouTube.
Most students who end up in legitimate IMA already have years of experience in other arts. When they finally meet someone with the skill set described by past masters, they recognize it immediately.
And usually, they stay and commit to learning it.
Different skill sets appear only when someone actually has them ā and most of the people with real internal skill arenāt doing public challenge matches or posting sparring clips. They just train.
Marin is a Chen stylist, his view reflects that method ā he teaches that relaxing the kua is a mistake and that real usage canāt be developed through that approach.
Adam Mizner, from a Yang line, is the complete opposite. His method is based on deep release in the kua and whole-body integration through relaxation. His work mirrors much of my own, just at a more refined level.
Two systems, two body methods, two different conclusions. Thatās why their training and results look different. Both are dedicated teachers, and anyone interested in the methods they work with would do well to study with them.
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Appledog51 4
Purple Belt
The game. You have to play to win. The other maxim is, we only know what we are shown. As with everything these are double edged swords. Certain games present rabbitholes. The deeper you go, the deeper it seems -- but in reality you are just digging yourself into a hole. These are like local maxima and minima. Once you go into one you have to exit it to go somewhere else. Some have said it is like a forest, or towers. Some towers are higher than others, and from the top you can often see other tops. But it is rare to find a tower with a bridge to another tower. Often the only way that happens is if they are built that way.
Take boxing. All you need is one in a billion. You need one chance encounter, caught live on television. Someone had their arm in just the right place, yadda yadda, someone leaned in just at the wrong -- or right moment -- and the other person goes flying, gets up and says 'what happened?!' Now, after 10, 20 or 30 years, you find you have been climbing, you look out the window and you say to yourself holy moley, look at that tower over there, so tall. Do you think you have time to go down and back up the other tower? What if you did and you looked back and you found your own tower was even taller? But the bridge can only be crossed once? You don't know what's at the top. Most people realize it's too risky to switch, because they won't even have time to get back where they were.
And then there is the pitiful situation of the cagefighter who has a maximum lifespan of 3-5 years before injury and brain damage takes its toll and they are no longer able to fight. How high do you think they can really climb, really? Maybe they can climb three times as fast but if you spend ten times longer at it you will be higher.
The fact that this never happens means that it cannot happen by accident. That is a natural conclusion. It's very similar to that other question you sometimes ask, "why is it that most tai chi players cannot demonstrate the basic skills of tai chi?" it's simple, it's because they are not training the basic skills of tai chi. These are simple, straightforward answers.
First you have to know what is possible. I have noticed a trend over the last 20-30 years; the tai chi world has lost the ideals and the conception of what Tai Chi is even supposed to be. I think this is partly intentional, but I cannot really say more without considerable prodding because it is speculation. The point is, people don't even know what is possible anymore so they don't even seek it.
Back to the first natural conclusion; if it is not somehting that can happen by accident that means it is a multi-step process which requires constant attention. It is not even a multi-step process that can happen by accident. You have to know what you are doing; it has to be a part of the game you are playing.
If you are playing a game where things are random or confused, or if you are not being taught precisely what to do, and left to discover it for yourself...
you are being cheated
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Same Trick60 11
Master of Arts
What are you chasing, just follow whatās natural., nothing real comes from illusions.
