United Kingdom: Turn in your neighbor if he has replicas

[thardey]

I guess the question would then be how exactly they were disabled. After all, making a gun isn't really that hard - I've seen a number of garage smith outfits myself. How much work are we talking about here I wonder?

That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!

Sounds like an afternoon job to me. Hmm, I'm also thinking that the Serial Numbers may not be present, either, since they're "replicas".

Also, if these guns were such a danger, why are they not illegal, how did the old guy get 'em, and if they are legal, what was the legal basis for seizing them?

That's my question, unless it was just enough on the legal side to slide under the radar . . .

I suppose for us it would be like having an arsenal of semi-auto rifles (not the banned ones). Perfectly legal, but if the police saw that you had stockpiled 30 of them, it would warrant a closer look into why you had them. Also, it's not hard to convert those to full auto, either.

Or maybe it's like what happened to this kid.

I'm from Portland originally myself, and I didn't know that. What is the point of carrying a disabled firearm? Looking scary? They'd be better off carrying a tac flashlight and pepper spray.

I never could figure that one out, myself.

Yeah, but it sure didn't stop two someones from being shot to death in the street right in front of my apartment. All the laws have accomplished is to make it harder to defend myself.

At least in England, they have a little better chance to control the overall amount of guns available, because of being separated by the channel. Just about anywhere else, though, and gun control becomes a joke to criminals. Even in the UK, I guess that it will be a losing battle.

Funny you should mention the movies! We think that they are actually influencing many of the teens who've got hold of guns. They are acting out what they think is the American gang scene as seen on films and tv. There is definitely an attraction for young boys there, guns equate to power for them and they identify with the 'ghetto' type of surroundings and with being at odds with society! Of course knowing the police aren't armed as they are in America makes them one up as it were!

Oh, jeez, I just realized that means that there's these kids who's only source of training is some thug movie. And there's no place to practice. They probably hold the gun sideways and can't hit the broad side of a barn. (That's an old American firearm-ism for ya -couldn't hit the ground if you were aiming at it-, etc, but I digress.) Now that's a scary thought.

IIRC, the first type of gun control in England was actually a ban on the crossbow. So I can understand wanting to stay with a system that has actually worked fairly well for 1,000 years, but there's absolutely no way you could really enforce a strict gun control system here, just way too many black-market options. If you suddenly banned guns, then there would suddenly be a lot of guns that get hidden in the attic.

 

[thardey]

I probably could fab a firing pin and drill out the barrel plug if one was there to begin with. The real issue is the quality of the steal used. Fire a round out of one of these with a cobble-job conversion and you are going to be holding a twisted hunk of metal with a stump that used to be your hand. There is a reason these usually sell for under $100 and a firing reproduction runs 3-5 times that much. There is MUCH more involved in converting these to firing weapons than somebody that didn't have access to a complete metal fab shop even COULD do. If you did have access, you wouldn't waste money on a replica as a starting point.

Sound like they're dealing with some kind of "Saturday night special", or maybe confiscated, or stolen weapons in Germany, that get "converted" into replicas.

If you read the article that Tez posted, it sounds as though the market for this stuff is kind of shady.

Besides, if your goal was to gain "street cred", no one would need to know that your gun is a piece of crap. If it goes "bang" then it's cool. (provided you still have your hand.)

 

[Tez3]

Crossbows and guns maybe illegal but it is also illegal, if you are male and over 14 not to practice your archery every Sunday afternoon in a place set aside for this purpose being correctly dressed and equiped.

In Regina v Habs, Quinn, Fairclough etc al.The police in Oxford brought a procescution when the defendants had set up archery targets in the High Street. This law was used as their defence. The magistrates allowed it but fined each defendant 10 guineas and costs for failing to wear their swords while practising.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,,2154806,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece

In the second article you will see that the guns are being smuggled in from Ireland.There has always been plenty of weapons in Ireland as they were smuggled in from the States, bought and paid for by fund raising groups of Irish-American sympathisers who may or may not have known that the money was for the IRA.

 

[thardey]

Crossbows and guns maybe illegal but it is also illegal, if you are male and over 14 not to practice your archery every Sunday afternoon in a place set aside for this purpose being correctly dressed and equiped.

In Regina v Habs, Quinn, Fairclough etc al.The police in Oxford brought a procescution when the defendants had set up archery targets in the High Street. This law was used as their defence. The magistrates allowed it but fined each defendant 10 guineas and costs for failing to wear their swords while practising.

:lfao:

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Great illustration of why a group of Englishmen came up with a new form of gvt. back in the 1700's and wrote up that little ole' amendment #2.

 

[Sukerkin]

Well spoken, sir :tup:! Altho' I think that keeping firearms out of the hands of those with mental problems or criminal records is sensible, the sweeping legislation we have to endure over here only works to disarm the law-abiding.

Oh and sadly, they finally got around to repealing the compulsory archery law a while ago (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).

 

[theletch1]

Well spoken, sir :tup:! Altho' I think that keeping firearms out of the hands of those with mental problems or criminal records is sensible, the sweeping legislation we have to endure over here only works to disarm the law-abiding.

Oh and sadly, they finally got around to repealing the compulsory archery law a while ago (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).

Just as it's still legal to beat one's wife if done on the steps of the county courthouse on a Sunday morning in one fine state of our union. Well, gee, thanks, Mark. Now I have to go start a thread on silly laws.

 

[Tez3]

Well spoken, sir :tup:! Altho' I think that keeping firearms out of the hands of those with mental problems or criminal records is sensible, the sweeping legislation we have to endure over here only works to disarm the law-abiding.

Oh and sadly, they finally got around to repealing the compulsory archery law a while ago (altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).

and quite right too in my opinion!

 

[Grenadier]

There is a reason these usually sell for under $100 and a firing reproduction runs 3-5 times that much. There is MUCH more involved in converting these to firing weapons than somebody that didn't have access to a complete metal fab shop even COULD do. If you did have access, you wouldn't waste money on a replica as a starting point.

Exactly. The time and precision needed to make such a decorative replica even somewhat safe to use, would be overwhelming. Even more importantly, someone with the knowledge of how to pull off such a thing would probably find it much easier to make his own STEN submachine gun receiver instead.

In the end, criminals aren't going to do such a thing, since they're usually lazy, and lack the know-how, to pull off such a feat. They'd rather buy real, unlawful, firearms from the black market, or steal them.

I find it interesting, that some people give criminals all of the credit in the world, claiming that they could do such a thing, yet they don't believe that law-abiding people have the capability to carry lawfully owned firearms...

 

[mini_dez]

(altho' it's still legal to kill those of a < certain nationality > if they roam the streets of York during the hours of darkness !).

Just you try it...

Is there not another stipulation to that law? I've heard it but the Scotsman has to be in a kilt, or the Englishman must use a bow and arrow from the city walls. Or something like that anyway...

 

[thardey]

Exactly. The time and precision needed to make such a decorative replica even somewhat safe to use, would be overwhelming. Even more importantly, someone with the knowledge of how to pull off such a thing would probably find it much easier to make his own STEN submachine gun receiver instead.

In the end, criminals aren't going to do such a thing, since they're usually lazy, and lack the know-how, to pull off such a feat. They'd rather buy real, unlawful, firearms from the black market, or steal them.

True, but we're not talking about decorative replicas anymore. That's what I thought at first, too. Nor are we talking about "cap guns" either.

From www.timesonline.co.uk/

REPLICA handguns that are being converted so British criminal gangs can use them to maim and kill can be bought in Germany without a permit.
Guns of the type said to be fuelling gang culture in the UK are available in high street stores and family-run arms dealerships for as little as £80.


Outlawed in the UK, they are sold over the counter in Germany as blank firers, CS gas guns and alarm pistols. They are then smuggled into Britain and converted into lethal weapons.
Greater Manchester police say almost half the illegal guns they seize are converted replicas.


Inquiries by The Sunday Times last week found that the weapons on sale in German shops include exact replicas of popular Smith & Wesson, Luger and Glock models. They are designed for self-defence or sport.

Nobody said they were safe, but they already have all of the components of a functional firearm. Couple that with what Tez said:

That's the ones! the firing pins will be removed and a small 'plug' of metal put somewhere (depending on who's doing it) in the barrel.It's supposed to be immovable but I'm guessing any of you wiould be able to remove it easily and probably someone unfamiliar with guns would be able to after a bit of thought!

How could you remove the firing pin unless it started with one? Same with the plug. I've never seen a "american" replica that didn't have the plug cast as part of the gun itself. These plugs were added later.

What was the term Tez used? "Reactivated" I think. That makes me think that they were active guns at one time, then deactivated, then sold and "reactivated".

I mean what does a knock-off .38 go for at a pawn shop? $100, $150? What about a .22 pistol? I don't know what calibers they're using over there, but in the land of knives, a .22 would be king.

The Manchester police say Cuno Melcher models from Germany and Russian Baikals bought in Lithuania are two sources of gun crime in the city. Most can be converted by drilling through a partial obstruction in the barrel and installing a new cylinder.
One victim of a converted weapon was Jay Patel from Roch-dale, Lancashire, who nearly died in October 2005 when his post office and convenience store was targeted by armed robbers. He was shot by a flare gun converted to fire real ammunition. The bullet hit the right side of his head before lodging itself in the ceiling. “It smelt of firecrackers and I fell back thinking I was hurt. It’s only because the gun was not 100% accurate that I’m here today,” he said.

And it's wouldn't be the kids/thugs who are doing the modifiying.

Guns of the type said to be fuelling gang culture in the UK are available in high street stores and family-run arms dealerships for as little as £80.

Sounds like these guys have a sort of gunsmithing shops. They probably don't care if they're safe, they just make them semi-functional, and sell them to desperate criminals.

Like Tez said, if these teenagers learned about guns through the media, they don't know enough about guns to know the difference between a safe gun and a dangerous gun. If the barrel is made of metal, they probably assume it's strong enough.

Here, we have enough education about KB's, and catastrophic failures to know not to mess around with areas under pressure. But they're desperate enough to use flare guns! That's the kind of situation a black market arms dealer would love to be in. Sell cheap knock-offs to hungry, uneducated teenagers. It's not like they can take these guns to the range and test them out. The first time they put a live round through one, is probably when they're aiming at their enemy.

Remember that ridiculous article about the .22 shell that got left on the street? That just proved how unfamiliar the whole gun concept is over there. It's easy to take advantage of that ignorance when people are obsessed with the romantic image of the gun.

I find it interesting, that some people give criminals all of the credit in the world, claiming that they could do such a thing, yet they don't believe that law-abiding people have the capability to carry lawfully owned firearms...

And that is a very good point. People will always over-exaggerate their fears when imagining something they don't know about. I guess it goes back to the lure of the "dark side", apparently stupid people can be successful criminals, while it takes a genius, or superhero to be a good guy.