Two Taekwondo contestants have altercation before contest

[puunui]

Another thing that separates us.

I think you pretty much separated yourself from everyone. But thanks for sharing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Not judging from the amount of pm's I keep getting. But thanks for your concern.

Hey...aren't you suppose to be on vacation? :drinkbeer

 

[jks9199]

Hey, guys, if you've got an axe to grind with each other, how about doing it in private so that the rest of us aren't spectators...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hey, guys, if you've got an axe to grind with each other, how about doing it in private so that the rest of us aren't spectators...

My apologies to everyone. It is apparent that Glenn and I don't see eye-to-eye on some issues that we are clearly both passionate about. Sometimes when two people are as passionate as we are in our views it can come across as rather harsh towards each other. Although I can't agree with Glenn on these issues as a matter of principle, I sincerely bear him no ill will and actually do hope he has an excellent vacation.

So rather than a couple of guys on the net duking it out, let's get back to the topic of the thread which was a couple of guys actually duking it out :uhyeah:

 

[Master Dan]

I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad

This is a very good point. The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student. Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools. And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles. I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank. I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind. These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me. They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach. I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.

 

[Jaeimseu]

This is a very good point. The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student. Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools. And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles. I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank. I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic. Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind. These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me. They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach. I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.

Does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an instructor pour himself into his teaching and also make a good living? Assuming that what you teach has value, why would it be wrong to receive payment?

 

[Jaeimseu]

I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad

I certainly think its possible for people to receive quality training in their garage with their dad or whoever, but...in my personal experience, those people have been few and far between. I've met more garage trained people who were over all sub-par in my opinion than the other way around, although I haven't met all that many garage trained people in my travels.

I certainly think that belonging to a recognizable school or organization is more likely to lend credibility to a martial artist, for the same reason that people want to attend an accredited college or university. Regardless of the quality of training a person received in someone's garage or backyard, the recognizable certificate is usually going to carry more weight.

 

[miguksaram]

I see so your premise is that based on income determines if a person is professional or amature? Well some one recently at a national seminar was stating that well you need such and such attitude or you should just stick to teaching in your garage. Then the SC demo team came out from LA finished a fine demo seminare and state oh by the way we train in a garage and back yard and college? Is there no respect for dedication father to son master to deciple heart to heart regardless of what money exchanges? There are those who have something to share and want to give that cannot be sold or bought for any price regardless of terms but jealousy seems to have to lable this or that?? sad

Who are you addressing this to?

 

[miguksaram]

This is a very good point. The size of the Dojang is inmaterial to the actual quality of the student. Many of the Original Okinawan masters either taught from their homes or had very small (at least initially) schools. And they produced many quality masters that in some cases went on to found their own styles.

I agree that the size does not matter. I know of a large TKD school which produces some great competitors and instructors. I know of a small HKD school that does the same.

I've seen comments in other threads that I shake my head at such as McDojang owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank. I have a hard time comprehending that type of ethic.

And I have experienced "garage" teachers claiming that they were the last line of a secret art taught only within a family so they teach privately. Turns out they took a few lesson here a few lessons there mixed up into their own Takeyourdo system. My point is that bad ethics does not only affect big schools.

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I prefer to see an instructor pour out of himself/herself because they love the art and love to teach and have the students upmost in their mind. These are the types of instructors I've been blessed to have and it made an impact on me. They had integrity, were honest in their motives and loved to teach. I think that sort of ethic translates onto the students.

That is what we would all like to see. However, too many martial artists get hung up on this whole stigma that they are not allowed to make a good living doing what they love. The sellout mentality runs rampant in our little circles and thus good teachers never strive. Which would you rather see a good teacher who can make a good living and reach 200 people? Or a good teacher "doing it for the art" and reach 2 people?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Does it have to be one or the other? Why can't an instructor pour himself into his teaching and also make a good living? Assuming that what you teach has value, why would it be wrong to receive payment?

It wouldn't necessarily be wrong to receive payment i.e. a laborer is worthy of his hire. But there is a line between making an honest living and selling out to commercialism. For some, the line is very distinct, for others, well they allow the line to become blurred.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I certainly think that belonging to a recognizable school or organization is more likely to lend credibility to a martial artist, for the same reason that people want to attend an accredited college or university. Regardless of the quality of training a person received in someone's garage or backyard, the recognizable certificate is usually going to carry more weight.

I would respectfully dispute this. Did Anko Itosu Sensei belong to a recognizable organization? How about Uechi Kanbun Sensei? The quality is in the individual, not the school or piece of paper. And what is recognizable quality in credentials will vary widely from person to person. What some consider the ultimate cert, others wouldn't line their bird cage with. No, quality is in the individual regardless of the school (or backyard or garage) they train in or the cert that states their level.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Which would you rather see a good teacher who can make a good living and reach 200 people? Or a good teacher "doing it for the art" and reach 2 people?

Providing both are honest and offer quality, either is fine. But using your example, which is more likely to be a commercial sell out? Which is more likely to have 6 year old BB's running around? Which is more likely to charge an exorbitant fee for a piece of paper? Which is more likely to be a kiddie-karate daycare center?

I'll say it again, if an owner is honest and has his students best in mind and can make an honest living then I'll give two thumbs up to him/her. If the properly advertise what they teach i.e. be honest if it is sport or SD and not try to market one as the other, then again, thumbs up.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I would respectfully dispute this. Did Anko Itosu Sensei belong to a recognizable organization? How about Uechi Kanbun Sensei? The quality is in the individual, not the school or piece of paper. And what is recognizable quality in credentials will vary widely from person to person. What some consider the ultimate cert, others wouldn't line their bird cage with. No, quality is in the individual regardless of the school (or backyard or garage) they train in or the cert that states their level.

I totally agree that "real" quality is in the individual. I'm not really talking about that in this case, though. I'm speaking more to the perception of quality. There are, no doubt, some people with kukkiwon certification who aren't so great, just as there are many people who graduate from accredited universities who can't read or write properly, but the people with the recognizable credentials are more likely to have their credentials recognized. The people who don't have recognizable certs may have all the talent in the world, but I think most people would have doubts at first. Of course, our own experiences influence our perceptions. From reading your posts, it's obvious that you don't have much use for the kukkiwon, so it's natural that you don't place much value in their certs. In my opinion, I prefer the org certificate, because I can at least get a basic idea of what the student has learned (poomsae/sparring style), whereas with a school certificate from whoever I have no idea what to expect. The student might be great, or they might be garbage. Going back to the university analogy, for many jobs a degree from an accredited university is a minimum requirement. A person who studied at home on their own may have all the same knowledge or more than the uni graduate, but the guy with the recognizable diploma is more likely to get called back for an interview.

 

[miguksaram]

It wouldn't necessarily be wrong to receive payment i.e. a laborer is worthy of his hire. But there is a line between making an honest living and selling out to commercialism. For some, the line is very distinct, for others, well they allow the line to become blurred.

What do you mean by commercialism?

 

[miguksaram]

I would respectfully dispute this. Did Anko Itosu Sensei belong to a recognizable organization? How about Uechi Kanbun Sensei? The quality is in the individual, not the school or piece of paper. And what is recognizable quality in credentials will vary widely from person to person. What some consider the ultimate cert, others wouldn't line their bird cage with. No, quality is in the individual regardless of the school (or backyard or garage) they train in or the cert that states their level.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Back in Itosu Sensei's days there were very few teachers and most of them knew of each other. If you said you were a student of Itosu, then people knew what to expect. Plus you were given a "certificate" by those instructors saying that you were allowed to teach the system.

As for orgs, while I agree there are way too many out there, there are some legit enough that set standards for their perspective arts, JKA, KKW, IKF, etc...and others of the sort.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I totally agree that "real" quality is in the individual. I'm not really talking about that in this case, though. I'm speaking more to the perception of quality. There are, no doubt, some people with kukkiwon certification who aren't so great, just as there are many people who graduate from accredited universities who can't read or write properly, but the people with the recognizable credentials are more likely to have their credentials recognized.

Let me ask this of you, what value would you place on someone with a valid KKW certificate (or from any org really) that bought the rank? And yes, people have bought KKW rank. Hell, I could if I wanted to spend the money. Of what value is that cert if the person 'earned' it from a McDojang that passed out the rank like candy as long as the person paid the proper fees? Of what value is that cert if the person thinks they're training in a martial art for SD but instead is in a martial sport? Of what value is that cert if the majority of Dan holders are school children in a particular country that 'earned' it in a year and very probably weren't charged the same amount of money that children and/or adults in other countries were/are charged?

In my opinion, I prefer the org certificate, because I can at least get a basic idea of what the student has learned (poomsae/sparring style), whereas with a school certificate from whoever I have no idea what to expect.

Perhaps...but perhaps not. The real test is what one can do on the mats, not what is hanging on the wall or is around their waste. With the exception of course for those that can no longer demonstrate physical technique due to age or disability. But the knowledge would/should still be there.

Going back to the university analogy, for many jobs a degree from an accredited university is a minimum requirement. A person who studied at home on their own may have all the same knowledge or more than the uni graduate, but the guy with the recognizable diploma is more likely to get called back for an interview.

Possibly, but then one can't really compare a martial arts certification to a degree or professional certification.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What do you mean by commercialism?

I believe the TKD section here has numerous examples.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Back in Itosu Sensei's days there were very few teachers and most of them knew of each other. If you said you were a student of Itosu, then people knew what to expect. Plus you were given a "certificate" by those instructors saying that you were allowed to teach the system.

They were given that certificate by the person who actually taught them. Not an organization that is in effect nothing more that a paperwork processing warehouse. Big difference.

As for orgs, while I agree there are way too many out there, there are some legit enough that set standards for their perspective arts, JKA, KKW, IKF, etc...and others of the sort.

Are we talking about rigid quality control standards that are set in place to assure fairness and validity in training/testing...or are we talking about standards that can be altered at will depending upon one's nationality, financial contributions or the need to increase the organizations bottom line?

Valid questions.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Let me ask this of you, what value would you place on someone with a valid KKW certificate (or from any org really) that bought the rank? And yes, people have bought KKW rank. Hell, I could if I wanted to spend the money. Of what value is that cert if the person 'earned' it from a McDojang that passed out the rank like candy as long as the person paid the proper fees? Of what value is that cert if the person thinks they're training in a martial art for SD but instead is in a martial sport? Of what value is that cert if the majority of Dan holders are school children in a particular country that 'earned' it in a year and very probably weren't charged the same amount of money that children and/or adults in other countries were/are charged?

What value does anything have if you look at things with such a cynical eye? I don't know how many people have bought their rank, and I really don't care. People who want to cheat or take advantage of the system will do so as members of the kukkiwon or any other organization. Whether or not someone else got their rank legitimately doesn't affect the value of my cert for me. Obviously, you prefer your own certificates to the kukkiwon's. I am not really concerned with that. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind here. People are free to do what they want. I'm just guessing that for many people, the cert from the big org has more "perceived" value. The fact that people are willing to buy the cert and/or pay high prices would seem to indicate that this is true.

Perhaps...but perhaps not. The real test is what one can do on the mats, not what is hanging on the wall or is around their waste. With the exception of course for those that can no longer demonstrate physical technique due to age or disability. But the knowledge would/should still be there.

I agree with you here. "Real" value is shown in what one can do. You would have to see first hand what a person can do to truely know, but I would still place more faith in a recognizable cert.

Possibly, but then one can't really compare a martial arts certification to a degree or professional certification.

Why not? What would be a valid comparison, in your opinion?

I hope you can read this. I'm trying to figure out the quote feature.