Twisted Twig

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Kirk

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TWISTED TWIG (front wrist lock)
1. With feet together and both hands of opponent applying a wrist lock on your right wrist, step forward and to your left (to 11 o'clock) with your right foot into a right neutral bow as you deliver a right upward elbow strike to your opponent's solar plexus and/or jaw. Your left hand is placed on top of opponent's right wrist for purposes of checking.
2. Pivot counter clockwise into a horse as you deliver a right outward elbow strike (palm up) to opponent's solar plexus.
3. Follow-up with a right downward hammer fist to opponent's groin as you shift into a right reverse bow. Have your left hand check at shoulder height.
 

jfarnsworth

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Originally posted by Kirk

TWISTED TWIG (front wrist lock)
1. With feet together and both hands of opponent applying a wrist lock on your right wrist, step forward and to your left (to 11 o'clock) with your right foot into a right neutral bow as you deliver a right upward elbow strike to your opponent's solar plexus and/or jaw. Your left hand is placed on top of opponent's right wrist for purposes of checking.
2. Pivot counter clockwise into a horse as you deliver a right outward elbow strike (palm up) to opponent's solar plexus.
3. Follow-up with a right downward hammer fist to opponent's groin as you shift into a right reverse bow. Have your left hand check at shoulder height.

Well during move #1 insert a four finger eye poke to the eyes. This should drive the attackers head backward and help with the release of the wrist lock. Immediately strike with the upward elbow strike. Hopefully this gets some discussion.
Jason Farnsworth
 

Doc

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Originally posted by jfarnsworth



Well during move #1 insert a four finger eye poke to the eyes. This should drive the attackers head backward and help with the release of the wrist lock. Immediately strike with the upward elbow strike. Hopefully this gets some discussion.
Jason Farnsworth

Well first of all if a guy knows how to perform a wrist flex lock, you won't be doing anything with your left hand. But my real question is, "How in the hell does someone get you in a wrist lock while standing in front of you?"
 

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In my small amount of years of being in the martial arts especially when I got into kenpo, then moved onward to learn twisted twig, I always thought to myself why would I want to let someone grab my wrist. I was at a black belt testing earlier this year with my friend who teaches jiu-jitsu. His youngest brother was testing for his 1st black. My friend gathered up everyone he knew in our area that he had good ties with to come sit on the board. There were a total of 13 black belts on this board. Well anyway the gentleman sitting beside me was a 5th black in aikido.He went to japan to test for his 5th this guy obviously knew what he was doing. Getting back on track when it was his turn to critiuqe locks and standing joint manipulations I thought to myself there's absolutely no way I would grab this guy. His standard wrist lock in this technique was just amazing to watch. I just thought I'd share my experience.
Jason Farnsworth
 

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Originally posted by jfarnsworth

In my small amount of years of being in the martial arts especially when I got into kenpo, then moved onward to learn twisted twig, I always thought to myself why would I want to let someone grab my wrist. I was at a black belt testing earlier this year with my friend who teaches jiu-jitsu. His youngest brother was testing for his 1st black. My friend gathered up everyone he knew in our area that he had good ties with to come sit on the board. There were a total of 13 black belts on this board. Well anyway the gentleman sitting beside me was a 5th black in aikido.He went to japan to test for his 5th this guy obviously knew what he was doing. Getting back on track when it was his turn to critiuqe locks and standing joint manipulations I thought to myself there's absolutely no way I would grab this guy. His standard wrist lock in this technique was just amazing to watch. I just thought I'd share my experience.
Jason Farnsworth

Well your points are very well taken. Although of course an attacker doesn't know the skill level of whom he attacks, it is highly unlikely anyone would walk up to anyone and reach down to seize his wrist. In most of the Motion-Kenpo schools/students I've observed, the defender "hands" his hand to the "attacker." That's because to explore the idea of these techniques you must teach the offense and the defense, otherwise how will you know it works? Without knowledge of the attack which is not generally taught in Motion-Kenpo, students not only "hand" the attacker their limb but then "snatch" it back as soon as he touches it. Whats the point? Corrupting a specific attack from the Web of Knowledge and turning it into an "attempt," instead of the true assault it is.

P.S. Ed Parker says, "ALL techniques where the attacker seizes your wrist, he attacks you from the side.

P.P.S. Ron Chap矇l says, "Crossing Talon," "Twisted Twig," "Entangled Wing" are all the same technique.;)
 

kenmpoka

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When I learned this tek, I was told that the wrist flex is pinned from a handshake. Otherwise no one is just going to walk up and grab your hand and and flex it in such a manner!!!!

In my years in Aikido and Jujutsu, I have never seen this situation, even as an ideal phase. In Jujutsu this sort of pin is usually performed on the ground, when you're on your back and the opponent locks up your arm and shoulder with his/her leg over you neck and he/she is sitting on your side and usually the lock flows into a reclining arm bar with a leg overhead (other options are also possible).

Any thoughts on this Doc?
How about you Mr. Conatser?

:asian:
 
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rmcrobertson

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Years ago, I was given an attack that answers very well, at least in an ideal context: the attack doesn't come from the front at all, but from behind and to the right; the attacker grabs your wrist with their left, steps forward right and grabs with the right, and pivots left toward you...

Of course, it might also be helpful to discuss just when and how this technique got into the kenpo curriculum: was it simply meant to offer a first experience of a wristlock, or a first exposure to the iudea that simplar attacks couldd be carried out on different planes?
 

Hollywood1340

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Kiddies,
As a student of HapKiDo, I have knowledge of wrist locks and other control techniques at a very personal level. I've found if the person is good, you'll most likely do one of two things instantaneously as they grab your hand:

1. Shoot up like a rocket on your tippy-toes

2. Drop like a stone to the floor.

And that's abot it. And if they pass the compliance phase, you'll have a broken wrist and that's not very good for a technique to get out of it. So my question, as a naive, non AKKer is how are botht he "attack" and the defense it in the "Ideal Phase" and some of the "What-ifs"?
 

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Originally posted by kenmpoka

When I learned this tek, I was told that the wrist flex is pinned from a handshake. Otherwise no one is just going to walk up and grab your hand and and flex it in such a manner!!!!

In my years in Aikido and Jujutsu, I have never seen this situation, even as an ideal phase. In Jujutsu this sort of pin is usually performed on the ground, when you're on your back and the opponent locks up your arm and shoulder with his/her leg over you neck and he/she is sitting on your side and usually the lock flows into a reclining arm bar with a leg overhead (other options are also possible).

Any thoughts on this Doc?
How about you Mr. Conatser?

:asian:

Well of course youre correct and other options as well like you said. Certainly it would be unreasonable the way the idea is presented in the Technique Manual. That is why it must be remembered they are only ideas. Without a knowledgeable teacher creating a workable ideal, its real easy to get lost. Anyone who thinks those tech manuals teach you the offensive and defensive how probably didnt score very high on their SATs. None of the versions of the manuals (and I have all of them) really even describe the assault. That's why everything is so vague. People don't shake your hand and try to turn it into a wrist-flex, especially while you're looking at him with a "free" hand.:) This one I will have to share with you in person sir.
 
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Rainman

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That is why it must be remembered they are only ideas. Without a knowledgeable teacher creating a workable ideal, its real easy to get lost. Anyone who thinks those tech manuals teach you the offensive and defensive how probably didnt score very high on their SATs.

Otay doc, it is the step throughs I am working on lately- step through attacks I mean. Some of the attacks are very singular (kicking punching) by position relationships. Kinda like designed for one step sparring- many older chinese systems have that stuff. Then move on to your chi sau and two man set for continueing attacks. So- what do you think about the singular step throughs? Or basically what does that mean to your- the singular step throughs that is.

thankyou
rm:asian:
 

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Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Years ago, I was given an attack that answers very well, at least in an ideal context: the attack doesn't come from the front at all, but from behind and to the right; the attacker grabs your wrist with their left, steps forward right and grabs with the right, and pivots left toward you...

I agree completely sir. The attacker comes from an angle where he is not seen and ends up attacking from the flank as you described.

Of course, it might also be helpful to discuss just when and how this technique got into the kenpo curriculum:

Well first I would disagree with the use of the word curriculum. When you go from one school to another, you never know what you're going to see. In my opinion the closest MK comes to a true curriculum is the Web of Knowledge to remind teachers what they need to consider in terms of assault possibilities. The teacher must draw from his own knowledge with suggestions from the written Lesson Plan to determine his group curriculum. But the WOK does more than just suggest defense, it actually requires an examination of various offensive assaults that are not so obvious. The many physical mechanisms that are necessary to attack someone are explained nowhere in any of the written material, so a thorough examination by the teacher to determine effective applications from both perspectives is required.

was it simply meant to offer a first experience of a wristlock, or a first exposure to the iudea that simplar attacks couldd be carried out on different planes?

No, but I understand and presume your thought process comes from Motion-Kenpo which encourages such considerations. Self-exploration and the examination of angles, motions, and what ifs are parts of its conceptual nature. However, as I alluded to earlier from a more pragmatic perspective, with curriculum that is rigid and designed to teach specific skills, the reasons are more grounded in practical applications than theoretical or hypothetical considerations.

Simply from a practical physical interaction curriculum, everything is predicated on the execution or control of height, width, and depth in human anatomy. What your response shall be to external stimuli depends on the extent or stage the assault reaches when you begin your interaction to stifle or counter it.

As an example, when I studied with Ed Parker while he was creating the Web of Knowledge, he showed me how he would take a particular assault and then back away into its various offensive stages. At one depth an attack is Twist of Fate. Still closer its Parting Wings. If the assault is actually completed it becomes Striking Serpents Head. or "Thrusting Prongs." Another example: "Grasp of Death," "Grip of Death," and "Escape From Death," are once again essentially the same assault at different heigths and depths of the attack. So you see, the way I was taught the attack is the same, but when, where, and how you engage it will determine the specific technique in the curriculum that is used. All the techniques and attacks are height, width, and depth related and our curriculum is fixed. You dont have to explore. The curriculum will bring it to you in a timely manner.
 

kenmpoka

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Agreed Doc, I look forward to your assault scenario.

I usually present the assault in this manner: Defender (the good guy) throwing a right jab, or pushing at someone in a threatening situation, the bad guy parries the jab or the push, catching the wrist and the elbow at LU-5 in the process. He then tries to flex the wrist inward and counter clockwise and the elbow upward to create a shoulder lock as well (Scenario is assuming a BJJ practitioner,LOL).
Now the Kenpo man has a split second to react and save his arm and shoulder by Twisted Twig; Left slap check, with an upward elbow........
How about it Doc?, I think I have been watching Blade II a bit too much. Awesome leg checks in this movie.

:asian:

P.S. Robert, why would anyone grab your arm from behind, bring it to the front, pass it on to the other arm and then try to do a wrist flex? I appreciate the thought though. I appreciate your dedication as well.

:asian:
 

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Originally posted by Rainman



Otay doc, it is the step throughs I am working on lately- step through attacks I mean. Some of the attacks are very singular (kicking punching) by position relationships. Kinda like designed for one step sparring- many older chinese systems have that stuff. Then move on to your chi sau and two man set for continueing attacks. So- what do you think about the singular step throughs? Or basically what does that mean to your- the singular step throughs that is.

thankyou
rm:asian:

You Sir, are very observant. You said it yourself. The "step through" comes from the old 1, 2, 3 step sparring drills from the traditional arts. I've only seen the step through in the Chinese Arts in Wu Shu, not the older "family arts." Two-man sets were designed to teach specific postures as well as offensive/defensive applications. "Chi-sao" was the extemporaneous component designed to teach sensitivity in the upper body.

Since then even the Chinese Knowledge is fading because the more recent "youngsters" want to compete. The same experience is happening in Indonesia because they want a "sport" version of Pentjak. Whenever an art panders to competition the knowledge begins to die, because sport application is always the lowest form of any art, (unless you're having death matches.)

Because many of the original imported instructors came from the traditional arts, they saw the step through as a legitimate attack as they do in Okinawa/Japanese/Korean arts. Ed Parker however didn't feel they had much in the way of an application offensively in a self defense based art. The truth is more subtle, with these step throughs being more "do" art than real application.

Like in a Japanese or Korean demo, they always "step back" so they can step forward when they attack. That's not likely in a real confrontation. People don't step away so they can have room to step through. However Parker recognized when a person is beginning to learn to defend themselves, the step through provides a measure of time to react, therefore he left them in. However, he advised a "step forward" from a "even footed" more natural stance like you would be more likely to encounter on the street is more realistic training.

My students stopped doing step throughs 25 years ago, but we do many things that are not in Motion-Kenpo. My advice: abandon step throughs unless they are specifically called for. Of course it does make the techniques harder to execute, but it's more real.

I also remember "back in the day" when if you were at the front of a technique line, you stood in a meditation horse. The theory was "If you can defend yourself from such an obviously vulnerable position, than real life would be easier." All of these things are part of the evolutionary history of American Kenpo. Ed Parker constantly changed. What you do in his art depends on "who" you were (despite claims he didn't teach everyone the same), "what" you learned (were you running a business?), "who" you learned it from, and (what evolutionary stage was Parker at) "when" "you" learned it.

"Don't try, do! Use the force."
 

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Originally posted by kenmpoka

Agreed Doc, I look forward to your assault scenario.

I usually present the assault in this manner: Defender (the good guy) throwing a right jab, or pushing at someone in a threatening situation, the bad guy parries the jab or the push, catching the wrist and the elbow at LU-5 in the process. He then tries to flex the wrist inward and counter clockwise and the elbow upward to create a shoulder lock as well (Scenario is assuming a BJJ practitioner,LOL).
Now the Kenpo man has a split second to react and save his arm and shoulder by Twisted Twig; Left slap check, with an upward elbow........
How about it Doc?, I think I have been watching Blade II a bit too much. Awesome leg checks in this movie.


Well I see you've been thinking. You've touched on one of the important things I teach. Whenever your limbs move away from your body torso, they must be incorruptable. That is, not capable of being manipulated, especially with blocks. Structural integrity is everything and everything is integrity. People with manipulation skills sometimes do things to force you to "hand" them your arm. A punch may be just a punch, or it may be a ploy to get you to block so they can manipulate your arm. Consider they may want you to "push" or "punch" at them.

Anyway your defense has to counter their initial assault. From a passive position you use a "Startle Reflex Response" to give your limb momentary structural integrity to stifle their action until you can respond with additional defensive action and ultimately an offensive counter response. I can show you how to configure your arm away from your body with an extended outward block, where a men attempting to place you in a "Wrist-Flex Brace (figure four) CANNOT bend your arm. It's all in how you move. This is what I teach my beginners. Not just to move, but "how" to move.

P.S. Robert, why would anyone grab your arm from behind, bring it to the front, pass it on to the other arm and then try to do a wrist flex? I appreciate the thought though. I appreciate your dedication as well.

Well actually sir he's right. If in fact the attack is going to be a wrist-flex, his description is right on the money. Of course a person could just punch you from your blind side, but the Lesson Plan wants you to learn to counter wrist-flexes and locks. Remember the assault is more than just one technique scenario, and it is supposed to teach you a basic skill that may be applied in many different ways as you become more knowledgeable.
 

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Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Kiddies,
As a student of HapKiDo, I have knowledge of wrist locks and other control techniques at a very personal level. I've found if the person is good, you'll most likely do one of two things instantaneously as they grab your hand:

1. Shoot up like a rocket on your tippy-toes

2. Drop like a stone to the floor.

And that's abot it. And if they pass the compliance phase, you'll have a broken wrist and that's not very good for a technique to get out of it. So my question, as a naive, non AKKer is how are botht he "attack" and the defense it in the "Ideal Phase" and some of the "What-ifs"?

Well Sir I am not one of the "kiddies" but, I studied a little HapKiDo with a gentleman named Sea Oh Choi a long time ago. He was pretty good and I learned a few things (I probably forgot most of it). Anyway I know some kinds of Kenpo doesn't generally address these things so I think it would be a good idea if you would share your knowledge with us and tell us how you counter it. I'm sure we all could benefit from the exchange Sir.
 

Hollywood1340

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Sir,
No disrespect intended, the "kiddies" issue is addresed elsewhere on this forum. My knowledge at this level is pretty limited, but I can give ou a few things to ponder. In the classic "Grappling" high school tussle, wrist traps and locks are fairly easy to enter into, much like from a lapel grab. Also from a punch, sliding down the arm, to the wrist and lock up from there. Would it be possible to enter into "Twisted Twig" from one of these scenarios?
 

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Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Sir,
No disrespect intended, the "kiddies" issue is addresed elsewhere on this forum. My knowledge at this level is pretty limited, but I can give ou a few things to ponder. In the classic "Grappling" high school tussle, wrist traps and locks are fairly easy to enter into, much like from a lapel grab. Also from a punch, sliding down the arm, to the wrist and lock up from there. Would it be possible to enter into "Twisted Twig" from one of these scenarios?

In American Kenpo, as I know it, the name "Twisted Twig" refers to a very specific attack and its defense. In the curriculum I use, variations and what ifs are not a part of the lessons of Twisted Twig.

Perhaps someone from Motion-Kenpo could give you some information about coming off of punches, etc. into their interpretation of the technique.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Peter:

First off, they'd do it to sneak up from behind and slap the wrist lock on you.

Second, I only argued that it was one reasonable attack.

Third off, the lock's really quite simple if you do it that way: you needn't "pass through," anything; just grab their wrist with your left, step forward and slap your right hand on top, while pivoting to your left, et voila!

Fourth off, I can't say that I've ever found this particular wrist lock all that convincing. Of course, every time I write something like that, Clyde or Larry seizes hold of me...

Thanks,
Robert
 

kenmpoka

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I did not mean to question the way of the execution but more, why would someone employ such a risky move when there are other methods of wrist lock to apply?

I have never met Clyde nor seen him in action, but I know Mr. Tatum is quite a technician, even 20 years ago when he was much younger. I am sure Clyde is following in his footsteps.

Respectfully,

:asian:
 

Hollywood1340

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Sirs, Ma'ams,
Maybe this will help, let us delve into the how of the tech. What exactly is the attack this tech is used for? Or how do you go about it. The words "Applying a wirst lock to your right wrist" are so open to variation, I'd like some clarification, Mr. Chap矇l has given me some clues, but I'd like to know more.
 
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