Hooking Wings (Front 2 hand low push)

MJS

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1) With feet together, drop back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow and execute a double hook (shape of the crane) using both of your hands to the inside of opponents wrists, as you draw your right foot back into a right cat stance.

2) Deliver a right front snapping ball kick to opponents groin.

3) Plant your right foot to 12 o'clock, simultaneously looping your right hand so that your right hammerfist strikes diagonally to opponents left jaw hinge. Continue a figure 8 pattern and right back knuckle to opponents right jaw hinge.

4) Follow up with a right upward elbow strike to opponents chin as your left hand guards your right ribcage, shuffling forward if necessary.

5) As your right elbow decends, deliver a right downward heel palm and claw to opponents face starting at the bridge of the nose as your left hand covers low.

6) Right front crossover and cover out to 7 o'clock.


Discussion on this technique and any variations that you may have.
 

michaeledward

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When we run this technique, our left hand, after hooking the attackers right arm, grabs the attackers right wrist and holds on as our left hand executes the strikes you indicate.

Also, the stances - Neutral Bow, Forward Bow, Neutral Bow, Wide kneel - in time with the strikes. (I think that's what we do).
 

kenpoworks

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This is something that can be inserted into P.Ws.,as you plant from the right kick the left hand (depending on distance) can be used palm up to strike the throat with the outside edge of the index finger through to the inside edge of the thumb, immediately after the strike the thumb and index finger can be used to pinch just behind/below the hinge of the jaw.
Rich
 

JamesB

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1. I prefer stepping straight back into a right forward-stance so my hips are aligned to the front....seeing as I'm going to be pushed backwards anyway I feel aligning the hips in that direction is important....

Because the attacker is going to be pretty close I wonder if the inside of the forearms (close to the elbows) would be a better target than the wrists? one would also be able to drive the attacker down and control his height alot better I feel(thinking aloud here!)

2. Cat/1-legged stance followed by a light front-snap-kick with the in-step of the foot. Just want the control of body posture here, not concerned with the power of the kick.

3. Can't remember what the sequence is after this...but my preference is to plant into a right-neutral-bow, at the same time execute a right inward hammer-fist to the side of the cheek, with a left slap-check to the right shoulder. Don't know if this is the best target - maybe the chin just below the lip would be another possiblity? At the moment a hammer-fist to cheek is what I find effective, gives me more margin for error.

I'm expecting the attacker to be either on the floor at this point, or several feet away looking kind of shocked. It's unlikely he's going to be there for the returning backfist so I prefer to stop at this point + treat the rest of the technique as a backup plan.
 
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MJS

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JamesB said:
1. I prefer stepping straight back into a right forward-stance so my hips are aligned to the front....seeing as I'm going to be pushed backwards anyway I feel aligning the hips in that direction is important....

By doing this, do you also feel that you'll be in a more stable stance?

Because the attacker is going to be pretty close I wonder if the inside of the forearms (close to the elbows) would be a better target than the wrists? one would also be able to drive the attacker down and control his height alot better I feel(thinking aloud here!)

One way that I've done this was to still use the crane shape of the hands, but rather than just use that movement to spread the opponents hands apart, I would just drop down on top of the arm, ending up a little above the wrist on the top of their arm. I found that this caused them to drop down a bit more, as you said in your description above. It still created a little space with their arms, and still allowed me to execute the kick.


Mike
 

kenpoworks

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JamesB said:
..........Because the attacker is going to be pretty close I wonder if the inside of the forearms (close to the elbows) would be a better target than the wrists..........quote]


Yes James, I prefer to attack the thumb side of the forearms also, I do this because of my defensive hand positioning at the start of the technique.
W.R.
Rich
 

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Good points, also by controlling their height with your crane stikes you take away the risk of the arms doing a re orbit.
 

JamesB

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MJS said:
By doing this, do you also feel that you'll be in a more stable stance?
Mike

My understanding (this is from my own experience) is that the forward-stance is not as structurally strong as the neutral-bow stance.. but my instructor has been teaching me how to 'PAM' when transitioning from stance-to-stance... so my forward bow is actually quite stable when stepping rearward in this case (I step back with left foot then PAM with my right-foot, maintaining the forward-facing hip alignment). Its sort of like a step-drag in reverse, but all from a forward-bow.

I see the step-back into a forward-stance being necessary to survive the initial push...just because this is the most natural way to move. Once I have a base, I could then pivot/transition into neutral-bow as required...

I've been taught that stepping back into a neutral bow, without first transitioning through the forward stance (+PAMs etc) results in a less-stable stance. This was certainly demonstrated very well by Mr Perez on his recent visit to us. I'm trying to incorporate this concept into all my techniques where appropriate..

In the past I've not done Hooking Wings this way...I'd always stepped straight back into a 45-cat stance...but I don't see this way being too successful, especially when being pushed forcefully.

MJS said:
One way that I've done this was to still use the crane shape of the hands, but rather than just use that movement to spread the opponents hands apart, I would just drop down on top of the arm, ending up a little above the wrist on the top of their arm. I found that this caused them to drop down a bit more, as you said in your description above. It still created a little space with their arms, and still allowed me to execute the kick.
Mike

Yeah sounds good.. at the moment I'm experimenting with using the outsides of my wrists+forearms to do this hooking...with my hands held in a more relaxed manner. kind of difficult to describe but it seems to work quite well.
 

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MJS said:
1) With feet together, drop back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow and execute a double hook (shape of the crane) using both of your hands to the inside of opponents wrists, as you draw your right foot back into a right cat stance.

2) Deliver a right front snapping ball kick to opponents groin.

3) Plant your right foot to 12 o'clock, simultaneously looping your right hand so that your right hammerfist strikes diagonally to opponents left jaw hinge. Continue a figure 8 pattern and right back knuckle to opponents right jaw hinge.

4) Follow up with a right upward elbow strike to opponents chin as your left hand guards your right ribcage, shuffling forward if necessary.

5) As your right elbow decends, deliver a right downward heel palm and claw to opponents face starting at the bridge of the nose as your left hand covers low.

6) Right front crossover and cover out to 7 o'clock.


Discussion on this technique and any variations that you may have.
Please take the time to consider under what circumstances would someone choose to "push low" which is defined by below the upper height zone.
 

JamesB

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Doc said:
Please take the time to consider under what circumstances would someone choose to "push low" which is defined by below the upper height zone.

I don't know a good answer to this but I'll have a go..

I think maybe the difference between push high + push low (if there is realistically such a thing?) is the intent of the attacker. A high push to the shoulders/chest would imply that the attacker wanted to suddenly increase distance between you both. Can't explain why but it just seems natural to push someone this way.

A low push seems very unnatural to me, at least as a method to shove someone away. As the push gets lower towards the abdomen/hips, this seems mechanically very different and I don't think the reaction (or the intended effect) would be for the victim to travel backwards (and stay on their feet). Rather, would the intent be to either drive the victim down to the ground, or even attempt a low tackle/bearhug attack?

james
 

Doc

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JamesB said:
I don't know a good answer to this but I'll have a go..

I think maybe the difference between push high + push low (if there is realistically such a thing?) is the intent of the attacker. A high push to the shoulders/chest would imply that the attacker wanted to suddenly increase distance between you both. Can't explain why but it just seems natural to push someone this way.

A low push seems very unnatural to me, at least as a method to shove someone away. As the push gets lower towards the abdomen/hips, this seems mechanically very different and I don't think the reaction (or the intended effect) would be for the victim to travel backwards (and stay on their feet). Rather, would the intent be to either drive the victim down to the ground, or even attempt a low tackle/bearhug attack?

james
You were right the first time James. It doesn't make sense. Mechanically an attacker would tend to push relatively at or near the height of their own shoulders. Pushing 'low' would result in making contact with your fingers and not the palms of your hands. Try it on a wall. Once the 'push' drops below your own mid-height zone, it is no longer a viable 'push.'

To push 'low' on a person, you would have to lower your own height and expose your own upper body for a low return on your physical investment. This action is also very obvious and would be read very quickly by your intended 'victim.'

What does all this mean? To me it means this technique from the beginning, needs serious revision to be realistic and functional. Many technique interpretations begin with flawed attacks, and it is important we take nothing for granted.
 

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Doc said:
... Pushing 'low' would result in making contact with your fingers and not the palms of your hands. Try it on a wall. Once the 'push' drops below your own mid-height zone, it is no longer a viable 'push.'

I'd noticed that recently (the finger thing), but figured that the hands could be rotated outwards so that the fingers were angled out to the sides, making the push at least feasible from this orientation. starting to look less like a grab and more like a push though:)

I'd kind of assumed that with the hands pointing outwards, this resulted in the arms being strong in a different direction, so this would require a different defence (hooking wings) rather than Alternating maces which attacks the arms from the top.
 

kenpoworks

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Doc said:
Please take the time to consider under what circumstances would someone choose to "push low" which is defined by below the upper height zone.

Hey Doc,
I remeber talking to you about this at the BKKU camp, some of the funniest "kenpo technique" attacks I/we had seen revolved around the Hooking Wings push...butt out,arms down, chin up and eyes shut....As I did mentioned hand position is where its at for me when it comes to direct pushes.
W.R.
Richie
 

Doc

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JamesB said:
I'd noticed that recently (the finger thing), but figured that the hands could be rotated outwards so that the fingers were angled out to the sides, making the push at least feasible from this orientation. starting to look less like a grab and more like a push though:)

I'd kind of assumed that with the hands pointing outwards, this resulted in the arms being strong in a different direction, so this would require a different defence (hooking wings) rather than Alternating maces which attacks the arms from the top.
Fingers pointed outward to allow a low push is what some do to justify an attack and subsequent defense that is obviously wrong, or never shows up because no one is ever actually 'pushed' in the way some train. People do not contort themselves to fit a technique scenario, they simply 'push' naturally. You might turn the fingers out if you were trying to move a piece of furniture or refrigerator across the room, but not to aggress another person.

The 'low push' was 'created' to fit technique scenarios and categories as opposed to recognizing that individuals have a finite number of ways of launching a push attack. Attacks should be examined first, and techniques created to counter them. Having an idea for a technique, and then 'inventing' an attack to satisfy the technique is ludicrous but we see it all the time.

I listened to a young (6 years on the street) police officer student of mine just yesterday complain about a training scenario conducted/concocted by a superior on a training day. The officer expressed reservations because the scenario contridicted his experience in the field, and a healthy dose of common sense.

However he played the training out just as instructed, and was shot in the back and 'killed' in the scenario. In the debriefing he was not very kind to the trainers, because he had predicted that very same outcome when the scenario was explained. However the superior in charge was vested in the technique/tactic he created and then worked at creating the scenario to fit his technique.

This type of "bass ackwards" type of so-called training is always a 'bad' idea no matter where you find it.
 

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kenpoworks said:
Hey Doc,
I remeber talking to you about this at the BKKU camp, some of the funniest "kenpo technique" attacks I/we had seen revolved around the Hooking Wings push...butt out,arms down, chin up and eyes shut....As I did mentioned hand position is where its at for me when it comes to direct pushes.
W.R.
Richie
Hey China. Consider one of the major sensors in the autonomic nervous system in PNF is from the wrist down to the hands, and their positions, no matter how slight, have a major impact on our physical capabilities.
 
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MJS

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Just worked this technique with someone who is slightly shorter that I, but nonetheless, this was simply an experiment. I agree that the attack, should it come lower, would be more of a takedown attempt, such as a double leg. That being said, there are techniques that address those sorts of attacks. The push was done on me, and the target was my chest. Now, whether or not this is incorrect or not, I made it work for me, but I was able to do Hooking Wings.

Now, perhaps Doc can answer this question:

The 'low push' was 'created' to fit technique scenarios and categories as opposed to recognizing that individuals have a finite number of ways of launching a push attack. Attacks should be examined first, and techniques created to counter them. Having an idea for a technique, and then 'inventing' an attack to satisfy the technique is ludicrous but we see it all the time.

Going on what you're saying Doc, if thats the case, why then, everywhere you look, this technique states it is for a low push, if in fact nobody would push with their hands in an awkward position? We have 1 handed pushes going to the left, right and center of the chest and we have the 2 hand push, which only makes sense to go to the chest.
 

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MJS said:
Now, perhaps Doc can answer this question:
Going on what you're saying Doc, if thats the case, why then, everywhere you look, this technique states it is for a low push, if in fact nobody would push with their hands in an awkward position?
THAT'S DAM GOOD QUESTION.
We have 1 handed pushes going to the left, right and center of the chest and we have the 2 hand push, which only makes sense to go to the chest.
Yes but the chest is not considered 'a low push.' The chest by definition is a part of the upper most height zone. A 'low' push would be below that. Besides as Mr. Parker used to say, "Just because everyone is doing it a certain way, doesn't mean its right, just that everyone thinks it's right." :)
 
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MJS

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Doc said:
THAT'S DAM GOOD QUESTION.

Yes but the chest is not considered 'a low push.' The chest by definition is a part of the upper most height zone. A 'low' push would be below that. Besides as Mr. Parker used to say, "Just because everyone is doing it a certain way, doesn't mean its right, just that everyone thinks it's right." :)

Yes, I realize that the chest is not considered low. I'm simply curious as to where the 'low' came into the picture?:idunno: When Mr. Parker was teaching this technique, what was the nature of the attack?

Mike
 

Doc

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MJS said:
Yes, I realize that the chest is not considered low. I'm simply curious as to where the 'low' came into the picture?:idunno: When Mr. Parker was teaching this technique, what was the nature of the attack?

Mike
Mr. Parker always taught me there were no 'low' pushes. Something I already knew working the streets of South Central Los Angeles. Now somewhere along the line some got hung up on 'category completion' as a teaching tool, and in my opinion lost sight of 'reality.' "If there are high pushes, there must be low." as the concept goes. As a cat completion device it makes sense, but when you use the Web Of Knowledge properly and work through to the technique, you eliminate the improbable in favor of the likely probable. There are 'low' tackles, and takedowns but not pushes.

So if this is true, then all the techniques designed to work predicated on the hands pushing low, would need to be re-examined. And that's the least of the problems sir. There are a lot of common 'misunderstandings.' Think of all the people teaching, who were taught by someone else, who were also taught be someone else, who read a description after they forgot what they thought they knew, and all of them are different and interpreting what they think they remember, for everything they think they have learned from a guy who learned by mimic from someone else, and never learned to think because he didn't have the street experience reference in the first place which is why he came into the school to learn, from someone else who didn't have the street experience either.........
 
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MJS

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Doc said:
Mr. Parker always taught me there were no 'low' pushes. Something I already knew working the streets of South Central Los Angeles. Now somewhere along the line some got hung up on 'category completion' as a teaching tool, and in my opinion lost sight of 'reality.' "If there are high pushes, there must be low." as the concept goes. As a cat completion device it makes sense, but when you use the Web Of Knowledge properly and work through to the technique, you eliminate the improbable in favor of the likely probable. There are 'low' tackles, and takedowns but not pushes.

So if this is true, then all the techniques designed to work predicated on the hands pushing low, would need to be re-examined. And that's the least of the problems sir. There are a lot of common 'misunderstandings.' Think of all the people teaching, who were taught by someone else, who were also taught be someone else, who read a description after they forgot what they thought they knew, and all of them are different and interpreting what they think they remember, for everything they think they have learned from a guy who learned by mimic from someone else, and never learned to think because he didn't have the street experience reference in the first place which is why he came into the school to learn, from someone else who didn't have the street experience either.........

Thank you for the reply Doc.

Another question for you. I hope that you don't mind me picking your brain.:)

1) Do you teach this technique as part of your material?

2) Am I safe to assume that Hooking Wings is a valid technique to use against a high push?

3) Can this technique be applied against a low tackle, around waist level?

4) What did Master Parker originally intend this technique to be a defense against?

Thanks in advance and I look forward to your reply.

Mike
 
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