Turks protest Islamic Rule

[Shuto]

link

A reported 200,000 Turks protested against their Islamic PM. Ergodan still has a lot of support but I find it interesting that there is a large vocal opposition to him taking control of the govt.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has brandished his strong religious convictions while at the same time pushing Turkey toward European Union membership, represents a challenge to secularists’ traditional approach to government in this 99-percent Muslim country. Many fear that if he or someone close to him wins the presidency, the government will be able to implement an Islamist agenda without opposition.

Remember, Iraq is right next door which creates a very interesting dynamic, especially if Iraq forms an Islamic based govt. You potentially have the Kurds, Iranians, Iraqis, and maybe the Turks battling it out. Saudi Arabia and Syria could be participants as well. I'll bet Israel is glad they aren't in the eye of the storm for once.

Does anyone know if Turky is primarily Sunni or Shiite? Also, does anyone know if there are ill feelings towards the Ottoman empire similar to the ill feelings the Chinese still have towards Japan?

 

[exile]

I'm pretty sure of this much, Shuto: a serious push toward an Islamic-law-based polity would lead to civil war in Turkey. Ataturk is still regarded there with the veneration that borders on adoration: think of how the French would view a figure who was a combination of Joan of Arc and Charles de Gaulle, and you have some idea of how he's viewed. His secular reforms are seen as part and parcel of the liberation of Turkey that Ataturk was instrumental in bringing about. Any proponent of Turkish Sharia is putting himself on a collision course with a 100mph freight train, I strongly suspect. It's true, Islamism is a very powerful social force in the Arab world... but the Turks aren't Arabs and have a strong identification with the West (as well they might: Istanbul was the longer-surviving part of the Roman empire by several hundred years, eh?), and the tremendous differences between the course of Turkish and Arabian history almost guarantee a very rough road for anyone who tries to force the Turks into Sharia.

 

[Ninjamom]

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I don't think you'll ever have to worry about the Kurds, Turks, Iraqis and Iranians joining forces any time soon - they all hate each other so much that we need to worry a little more about the possibility of them all killing each other.

 

[Carol]

Islam in Turkey is quite interesting. Most Turks are Sunni, but worship in a way that is more like the Sufis, a group that by lineage is Shia.

Turkey forbids the wearing of headscarves in public places such as government buildings and schools/universities.

It is an interesting, and yet disturbing situation with PM Ergodan...a situation that may not resolve itself easily.

 

[tellner]

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I don't think you'll ever have to worry about the Kurds, Turks, Iraqis and Iranians joining forces any time soon - they all hate each other so much that we need to worry a little more about the possibility of them all killing each other.

The only thing Iraq, Turkey and Iran can agree on is killing Kurds. While Iraq may soon become a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Persians (for which we can directly and completely credit the Americans) the Turks simply won't.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Does anyone know if Turky is primarily Sunni or Shiite? Also, does anyone know if there are ill feelings towards the Ottoman empire similar to the ill feelings the Chinese still have towards Japan?

The vast majority of Turkish Muslims are of the Sunni sect. The Ottoman Empire was founded by the Seljuk Turks and what is now Turkey was the centre of the Empire. Because of this I think that most Turks would regard the Ottoman Empire as a period of their history to be proud of. The Ottoman's were not invader like the Japanese in China and, as far as I can tell, were nowhere near as ruthless.

 

[tellner]

Like most of the horse nomads the Seljuks used atrocity judiciously, as a way of stopping resistance early. Then they - and their Ottoman descendants - would get rid of the old nobility, cut taxes and encourage trade. It was a winning combination which allowed them to rule a large empire with relatively few people, much like the Mongols.

 

[Shuto]

Islam in Turkey is quite interesting. Most Turks are Sunni, but worship in a way that is more like the Sufis, a group that by lineage is Shia.

Turkey forbids the wearing of headscarves in public places such as government buildings and schools/universities.

It is an interesting, and yet disturbing situation with PM Ergodan...a situation that may not resolve itself easily.

I believe a Turkish judge was recently assasinated because someone disagreed with the way he ruled on a woman teacher and her insistance upon wearing a scarf. She originally wore a wig to comply with Islamic law but then she started wearing a scarf instead... or something like that. The judge said she couldn't work as a teacher. I'll try to find a link. Anyways, fundamentalist Islam is making inroads into Turkey. It's not clear to me, however, how significant their presence is at this point.

edit

Oh, and that Sufi, Sunni, Shiite thing is interesting. I didn't know an of that. I wonder how the hardliners in Saudi Arabia view this form of Islam?

Edit II


I found this link that mentions the assassination. I couldn't find a link devoted to the assassination. I believe the article I read was in the WSJ and the story is a bit more complicated than the simple description I gave.

link

Tensions were aggravated again in May when a prominent judge at the Council of State, Turkey's highest administrative court, was murdered by a Muslim nationalist who said the attack was in retaliation for a recent ruling against a teacher who wore an Islamic- style head scarf.


I found this interesting in the same link.

The secular establishment in Turkey fears that the AKP will make Erdogan its candidate to replace the staunchly secular president, Ahmet Necdet Sezer, who is to step down next May. Should that happen, a party with Muslim roots could tighten its influence in a country where the separation between mosque and state long has been sacrosanct. The prime minister is the head of the government, but the president has the power to reject legislation.

And this as well.

Ulgen noted that secularists had looked on in dismay when the state television network decided not to buy the rights to Winnie the Pooh on the ground that the Piglet character was incompatible with Turkish traditional values.

 

[Ninjamom]

The Ottoman's were not invader like the Japanese in China and, as far as I can tell, were nowhere near as ruthless.

You might ask any Armenian if they would argue with that statement. (See Wikipedia, and others, for information on the Armenian Holocaust , the first 20th century example of genocide on a grand scale, the forerunner to Hitler's Holocaust, and part of the lasting legacy of the Ottoman Empire.)

I suppose I should be greatful, though - my forebears probably wouldn't have left Lebanon for the US if the Ottomans hadn't doused some family members with gasoline and roasted them alive just before WWI.

Sorry, but most cultures have more than a few genocidal skeletons in their closets.

 

[Carol]

edit

Oh, and that Sufi, Sunni, Shiite thing is interesting. I didn't know an of that. I wonder how the hardliners in Saudi Arabia view this form of Islam?

Sufiism is defined more by its mysticism than its lineage. The archconservative Wahhabi sect of Sunnis in Saudi Arabia view such an expression of Islam as heretical...but mystical exrpressions are generally not appreciated by many Islamic communities, whether Sunni or Shi'a.

 

[Steel Tiger]

You might ask any Armenian if they would argue with that statement. (See Wikipedia, and others, for information on the Armenian Holocaust , the first 20th century example of genocide on a grand scale, the forerunner to Hitler's Holocaust, and part of the lasting legacy of the Ottoman Empire.)

I suppose I should be greatful, though - my forebears probably wouldn't have left Lebanon for the US if the Ottomans hadn't doused some family members with gasoline and roasted them alive just before WWI.

Sorry, but most cultures have more than a few genocidal skeletons in their closets.

Can't disagree with you about the Armenians and the Lebanese. I was aware of the Ottoman treatment of Armenians, but was not aware of their treatment of the Lebanese. I can see that they might resent the Ottomans. But the Turks are the direct descendants of the Ottomans so they're likely to have a different perspective on things.

 

[Ninjamom]

Of course, and please don't let my mini-rant about history imply that I have anything against modern Turkey or the Turkish people: I don't.

But yes, there are folks in that part of the world who still do.

 

[tellner]

Heck, my first Silat teacher was a German-Irish Catholic hillbilly who grew up in a town full of Russian hillbillies. They hated his family for being German. The Nazis? The Kaiser? Nope. It was all about the Teutonic Knights in the 13th century. People here just do not know how to hold a world-class grudge.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Heck, my first Silat teacher was a German-Irish Catholic hillbilly who grew up in a town full of Russian hillbillies. They hated his family for being German. The Nazis? The Kaiser? Nope. It was all about the Teutonic Knights in the 13th century. People here just do not know how to hold a world-class grudge.

I know what you mean. Down here no one knows how to hold a grudge, except for all the people who have immigrated from Europe and the Middle East. Us people from Anglo stock we've got no idea.

 

[tellner]

It's hard to answer the Sunni/Shia question without getting into a whole bunch of religious and political history, the ethnic divisions in the Near East and many, many other details.

The simple version goes sort of like this...

After the death of Mohammed (pbuh) Islam continued to spread. There were differences of opinion about who was supposed to be in charge of the Faith. Was it the sayeeds (the descendents of the Prophet)? If so, which ones? Was it one or the other of his close friends?

It devolved into the usual sort of thing - ethnic divisions, "the last argument of kings", and a certain degree of factionalism. As my good friend Mushtaq Ali Al-Ansari - martial artist, musician and poor wandering dervish (semi-retired) puts it:

Re: What's the difference?

It's really quite simple;

The Sunnis make up the largest Muslim faction. You can tell them because they hate the Shia over some events that happened about 1400 years ago, and because they are of the opinion that God is running a democracy and that if a majority of them think that things should be done a certain way then God has to agree.

You can tell A Sunni sometimes because of the habit that some of them have of cursing Ali ibn Abu Talib, the son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet, who the Prophet raised from childhood and married to his most beloved daughter.

The Shia are a much smaller faction of Muslims. They hate Sunnis because of events that happened about 1400 years ago. They think that certain people are more capable of knowing what is best for you than you are yourself. They know who these people are because they all agree that this person or that person is one of these special people.

You can sometimes tell Shia because some of them delight in cursing Abu Bakr, the Prophets closest friend, who the Prophet loved very deeply.

Now the Wahhabis have solved the problem of who to hate by just hating everyone who is not them and desiding that anyone who does not agree with everything they say is not really a Muslim and should be killed.

You can sometimes tell a wahabbi by the habit that some of them have of sitting around making lists of every possible action that invalidates someone else's Islam.

All three groups agree on almost nothing,.........

Except that Sufis are all innovators and heretics of the first water and should probably all be killed because most Sufis don't have anyone to hate and are much more concerned with their own Islam than that of their neighbor's.

I hope that this helps clear things up a little.

Now I'll remove tongue slightly from cheek.

The Sunni are the largest division within Islam. The Shia are the next largest. The Sunni believe in one line of succession. The Shia believe in another and feel that that line included a number of, not prophets, but specially chosen leaders known as the Imams. All of them agree on the important parts of Islam. The similarities are much greater than the differences. There are other smaller sects such as the Alawaites who are important in Syria and some odd splinter groups like the Ahmaddiya. Don't worry about that too much.

The Wahabis are the followers of Muhammed ibn Abd Al Wahab, an eighteenth century man from the Arabian Peninsula. He preached a very strict, literal and rigid form of Sunni Islam. It became an important political movement with the ascendance of the House of Saud in the 1920s because it gave them control of Mecca and therefore the Hajj. It swung into high gear with the discovery of oil. Most Wahabites claim there is no such thing. They are just Muslims, the real Muslims. At most they will call themselves "Salafists" or original Muslims.

Sufism is a tradition within Islam. More Shia than Sunni are Sufis, although Sunni Turkey is the home of many, many Sufis. Many Sufis trace their lineage back to Ali (may G-d be pleased with him) who is disliked by many Sunnis as we see above. Sufism stresses the importance of a personal relationship with G-d, constant remembrance of the Divine, and a close relationship with teachers and mentors. It tends to be anti-authoritarian and the repository of the mystical and transcendent within Islam. As such, it is hated and forbidden by rulers. Being a Sufi is illegal in every country whose legal system is based on Sharia.

Sufis are found all over the place. Disproportionate numbers of them are scholars, artists of various sorts, and the poor. Sometimes all at the same time The Turkish Janissaries were tutored by members of the Bektashi Sufi order. The Whirling Dervishes are Sufis of the Mevlevi order founded by the famous poet Rumi.

While Sufism is a current within Islam there is an adage which applies "Mystics tend to recognize one another. Fundamentalists see only themselves." Sufis have generally gotten along with similar people from other religions. The great Rabbi Moses Maimonedes and his son were both extremely pious and observant Jews. They were also members of Sufi groups and are recognized as Shaykhs by most orders. The great Kabbalist known as "The Ari" had Sufi and yogic training. The religion of the Sikhs has strong Sufi roots and a similar outlook to the best of my meager knowledge. In fact, my Shaykh is one of those who believes that the Sikhs really are Sufis and are only something else because of stupidity and prejudice on the part of certain Muslim invaders of the subcontinent.

Heck, that quote bears some repeating. I'll say it again....

"Mystics tend to recognize one another. Fundamentalists see only themselves."

 

[Steel Tiger]

Very nice post Tellner. But haven't you forgotten someone? Those poor, poor put upon Ismaili. Sure, they're probably no longer in existence and they did spawn the Assassins, but they were, for four or five centuries a legitimate sect of Islam.

How can you tell? Everyone else hated them and they hated the Abbasids. But, seriously, they were belivers in another line of descent from the the Prophet involving Ismail. They sought the inner essence or meaning of the Qur'an for which they were despised because they did not accept the literal wording of the book. They were mystics. Just mystics willing to murder for their cause.

 

[Carol]

Very nice post Tellner. But haven't you forgotten someone? Those poor, poor put upon Ismaili. Sure, they're probably no longer in existence and they did spawn the Assassins, but they were, for four or five centuries a legitimate sect of Islam.

How can you tell? Everyone else hated them and they hated the Abbasids. But, seriously, they were belivers in another line of descent from the the Prophet involving Ismail. They sought the inner essence or meaning of the Qur'an for which they were despised because they did not accept the literal wording of the book. They were mystics. Just mystics willing to murder for their cause.

The Isma'ili are Shi'a and make up a substantial amount of today's Shi'a Muslims. Ismai'li is the sect of many Afghans, many Sindh (India), and many folks in Southeast Asia.

To label all Isma'ili as murderers would not be a fair descriptive.

 

[Steel Tiger]

The Isma'ili are Shi'a and make up a substantial amount of today's Shi'a Muslims. Ismai'li is the sect of many Afghans, many Sindh (India), and many folks in Southeast Asia.

To label all Isma'ili as murderers would not be a fair descriptive.

I didn't know that the Ismaili were so influential, especially further to the east. I had made a natural assumption that because Sunni were more numerous that the Islamic sects in India would be of a Sunni descent. But now that I think about it, it is not surprising that they would move east in the face of the Abbasid persecution (real or perceived).

You're right, it is not fair to label all Ismaili murderers. I was referring only to the Assassins (and clumsily at that).

 

[tellner]

Thank you Steel Tiger and Carol. I had lumped the Ismaili in with other Shia. I'm not sure the Aga Khan would approve

 

[Carol]

You're right, it is not fair to label all Ismaili murderers. I was referring only to the Assassins (and clumsily at that).

Thank you Steel Tiger and Carol. I had lumped the Ismaili in with other Shia. I'm not sure the Aga Khan would approve

We are all students :asian: