Tunnel Vision

[Ediaan]

So one of my fellow students, fairly new to WT, was involved in a fight at a gas station a few days back.

Apparently some jerk was shouting at him and using vulgar language and started to move towards him. When he realized that there was no other way than to move forward and attack down the centre, he did that. He chain punched and took the guy down. When the guy fell to the ground, he continued his attack by having his one leg on the guys short ribs and continuing his chain punch.

Next moment, the guy's buddy comes from the side and knocks him out.

Tunnel vision.

We try to teach students how important it is to always be aware of your surroundings. He was so busy continuing his attack that he forgot to check whether there was anybody else around that might come to the assailants aid.

How many of us have been robbed / attacked when suddenly there were three or four people around you - coming, seemingly, out of the woodwork?

 

[Chris Parker]

That happens with adrenaline. The only way to train against it is to train with adrenaline (which is not the same as sparring, or many things sometimes thought to be the same), simply telling people to "be more aware", or even "check around you" isn't enough.

 

[mysurvive]

How could you train with adrenaline regularly to get rid of the tunnel vision without going out and picking fights?

 

[Chris Parker]

By understanding what it is, what the process is, how to deliberately (safely, controllably) generate the proper form of adrenaline, and build up your ability to move/train with it. Then repeat. Many, many times.

 

[Ediaan]

How could you train with adrenaline regularly to get rid of the tunnel vision without going out and picking fights?

Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.

 

[Ediaan]

No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.

Perhaps not for you, Chris, but in my own defence, I've been in a lot of fights, and if not for sparring, I might have been off much worse than I was.

I agree that the form of adrenaline is definitely not the same, but nothing can really prepare you for a fight or flight situation. It all depends on what is happening and if it's going to be a fist fight, or if your life is going to depend on it.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, to be fair as well, you stated that "sparring is the best answer". And, well, it's not. It can help, but it's not actually even designed to address the problem, whereas other methods (including scenario training, adrenal response training, and more) are. These are direct simulations of fights, and are, really, the closest you can get. Sparring is preparation for sparring, or competition. Not for defending yourself.

 

[jks9199]

Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.

No. First, the practice you describe means that half the time (I'm assuming you trade off roles), you're practicing something you don't want to do -- namely, fight without using your principles. That's at best wasted time... and may actually reinforce the wrong thing if you're more successful with it.

Sparring is great practice for dueling. For real defense? Not so good. First, you start from a prepared, expectant position. Second, you repeated re-engage; in real defense, once free and able, you should be escaping. (LEOs and others with similar duties need to move to subdue and control -- but still not what sparring does.)

 

[mysurvive]

I was wondering because this is something that has happened to me in the past while getting in random street fights. I plan on sitting in on my first WC class today and I was just wondering if that was something that WC teaches to overcome or whether it's something you have to learn yourself. very interested.

 

[Chris Parker]

Without speaking for Wing Chun here, I fear that real knowledge of this topic is a rarity... I'd look to RBSD teachers for the best understanding. Catch is, that term is thrown around by people who have no real claim to it, so be careful who uses it... I'd suggest that there are some WC teachers who will know how to teach you (prepare you) for it, but it may not be a part of Wing Chun itself (for the record, there is a method taught in Japanese arts, but it's not really known even in those circles, or is misunderstood in many cases).

 

[mysurvive]

would this type of adrenal training require someone to actually teach it to you, or is it something that can be self taught? Obviously someone who knows what they're doing can teach you more quickly, but can you teach yourself? If so, are there resources? This is somethign I have always wondered. I used to get this tunnel vision so bad that I would literally black out and not remember the fights.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.

No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.

I have a slightly different take on this from Chris. Sparring can produce adrenaline, although less so as you get used to it. However normal one-on-one sparring does nothing to lessen tunnel vision. In fact, focusing strictly on your opponent is a normal feature of sparring. If your reaction to adrenaline is to fall into your normal sparring mode, then you are very likely to maintain that tunnel vision in a real fight.
If you want to avoid tunnel vision when adrenaline kicks in, you have to do training exercises that force you to maintain awareness under stress. Fight simulation drills with potential multiple attackers are one possibility, but not the only one.

 

[Chris Parker]

would this type of adrenal training require someone to actually teach it to you, or is it something that can be self taught? Obviously someone who knows what they're doing can teach you more quickly, but can you teach yourself? If so, are there resources? This is somethign I have always wondered. I used to get this tunnel vision so bad that I would literally black out and not remember the fights.

You need someone who knows how to teach it... or, really, how to guide you through it.

I have a slightly different take on this from Chris. Sparring can produce adrenaline, although less so as you get used to it. However normal one-on-one sparring does nothing to lessen tunnel vision. In fact, focusing strictly on your opponent is a normal feature of sparring. If your reaction to adrenaline is to fall into your normal sparring mode, then you are very likely to maintain that tunnel vision in a real fight.
If you want to avoid tunnel vision when adrenaline kicks in, you have to do training exercises that force you to maintain awareness under stress. Fight simulation drills with potential multiple attackers are one possibility, but not the only one.

Hi Tony,

My biggest issue is that the adrenaline felt in sparring is of a completely different type... it's a gradual release, not a sudden dump, and, as a result, the effects felt are rather different. Gradually turning up the central heating doesn't prepare you to walk into flames, kinda thing...

 

[K-man]

Sparring is the best answer. We have a lot of students with other martial arts / mma experience. We put safety gear on and then one person is the WT student and the other a street fighter. That type of sparring is called controlled fighting and it's the closest I've ever come to a real fight.

I'm not sure how much sparring helps, especially when you become confident in the situation. The adrenaline released during sparring is about the same as you get in a gym workout. If you are sparring someone new and you suddenly realise he might hurt you, those levels will increase. We are talking about 10 times the level of adrenaline in the system than when we are resting.

Now, when we are exposed to a life threatening event we get the adrenal dump syndrome. The adrenalin level goes up to 50 times the normal level. That is about five times the level you achieve in sparring. You won't get near that level in competition fighting and the side effects are much greater. Adrenal dump is where you lose peripheral vision. You might even lose your colour vision and hearing. Your heart rate can go way over 200 bpm and it is possible you can faint because the blood flow is actually compromised. Also your sense of time changes.

No, it's not. It's quite removed from real fighting, on a number of levels, and does not generate the same form of adrenaline, therefore is really no preparation for this.

So this is not really correct. It is true that there is adrenalin and there is noradrenaline but they are not secreted at different times. Under stress we get numerous transmitters released. It is the level of stress that determines how much is released.

So I agree with Chris that sparring probably has little to do with preparing to deal with adrenal response. Even using the 'controlled fighting' or the 'Red Man' will not give you the adrenalin levels required to even feel the adrenal response. :asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I was referring to the difference between a slow release and a dump, rather than adrenaline and noradrenaline... so we're in agreement, yeah?

 

[K-man]

Yeah, I was referring to the difference between a slow release and a dump, rather than adrenaline and noradrenaline... so we're in agreement, yeah?

Quite right sir. :asian:

 

[Drasken]

I learned through simulated fighting, having to forcefully calm myself and react to any situation that caused an adrenaline dump etc. Oh... and pain.
This training has saved me several times as I now utilize the adrenaline, but immediately become calm and do what I have to do. But in training if I ever let myself stay too focused on my one opponent, and there was nobody else to attack me even though I wasn't looking, my instructor would sucker punch me just to remind me to keep alert.
But keep in mind that for gun disarms I was given a pair of goggles and told to disarm someone that was trying to "mug" me with a high quality airsoft pistol.

I believe everyone should go through training to react differently to an adrenaline dump though. It has saved me in more than just fighting. Once I was choking and nobody around me reacted. Rather than panic and hope someone helped before I passed out (while using more oxygen due to panic) I went through the steps. 1. Cough. Didn't work. 2. Try to dislodge with water. Didn't work, full blockage. At this point I realized there wasn't anything ound me to aid in giving myself the Heimlich so I calmly reached down my throat and pulled out the blockage.
Same concept of keeping calm and alert, not panicking, goes hand in hand with fighting. If you train yourself to react this way when encountering ANY situation where "fight or flight" is present you will find it to be amazingly useful.

That being said, sparring is useful for many things. But training for an adrenaline dump and following reaction is not one of them. It is possible to simulate a situation and get the same kind of adrenaline. Our military does it all the time. I go to a gun range that is a 360 degree screen you step into with a fake ( but very realistic feeling ) gun. Logically you know it's fake. But you still react as though it were real.
That is the way you should train to stop the tunnel vision. You'd be surprised how quickly most people make progress while doing this.

 

[Eric_H]

I learned through simulated fighting, having to forcefully calm myself and react to any situation that caused an adrenaline dump etc. Oh... and pain.
This training has saved me several times as I now utilize the adrenaline, but immediately become calm and do what I have to do. But in training if I ever let myself stay too focused on my one opponent, and there was nobody else to attack me even though I wasn't looking, my instructor would sucker punch me just to remind me to keep alert.
But keep in mind that for gun disarms I was given a pair of goggles and told to disarm someone that was trying to "mug" me with a high quality airsoft pistol.

One of the best drills I used preparing for adrenaline dump was in sword fighting:

You would have one attacker that would engage you first with a pre-scripted attack.
You would be surrounded by everyone else. At any time one or more of them would yell and attack you in one of a few pre-scripted ways.

Never knew where it was coming from or how hard, just that you were in a mass of people and any one of them could come at you. Everyone freaked out their first time, but it made a big difference after a few sessions.

 

[Ediaan]

Perhaps we should think of getting a qualified RBSD instructor to teach us as well, as Chris Parker has stated. It did not occur to me that it might give us a more realistic adrenal dump / release. Thanks for all your thoughts!