Truth

[Big Don]

Inspired by:

Truth is relative.

Is it?
Dictionary.com defines it:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This truth

Audio Help /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, –noun, plural truths

Audio Help /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth

z, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. 1.the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth. 2.conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3.a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. 4.the state or character of being true. 5.actuality or actual existence. 6.an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude. 7.honesty; integrity; truthfulness. 8.(often initial capital letter

) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life. 9.agreement with a standard or original. 10.accuracy, as of position or adjustment. 11.Archaic. fidelity or constancy. —Idiom12.in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

(I can sense a disagreement over the example given in 12 above...)

Is truth relative? Is a dog not always an animal? Are trees not always plants?

 

[Ray]

Is truth relative? Is a dog not always an animal? Are trees not always plants?

The classifications of "dog" "tree" "plant" and "animal" are artificial constructs that symbolize ideas.

We could change around our classifications of living things so that all things that fly are called "birds" (bats, bugs, insects) and then argue about gliding animals fit in. Within our artificial contruct, that artificial truth is relative.

 

[elder999]

Inspired by:
Is it?
Dictionary.com defines it:

(I can sense a disagreement over the example given in 12 above...)

Is truth relative? Is a dog not always an animal? Are trees not always plants?

Well, what about #8?:

8.(often initial capital letter

) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.

For some, it's a "fundamental reality" transcending all-or almost all-of our "perceived experience" that little grey men from the Crab Nebula have been coming and taking them away for special testing and breeding programs for all of their lives....for others, the "grey's" experiments have failed, and they all died years ago, while for others there is no such thing as a UFO, let alone aliens. For some of us, it's a "fundamental reality" that they can remember past lives, and bread and wine can be turned into the body and blood of God himself-who was a man-simply because another man waves his hands and says some words (Hocus pocus, abracadabra!)-and they have faith: they believe it to be true. For some of us, the tables we sit at and the ground we walk on are quite solid, while for a few of us-physicists-the reality is quite different.

And we have my 68 degree rule: I'm cold, she's hot, the rooms at 68 degrees.I have goose-bumps, she sweats, and there's only one other fact, and that's the temperature.One fact, two truths, all equally valid. I mean, if I have goose-bumps, am I not cold? If she is sweating, is she not hot?

And I could say, though I admit I'd be splitting hairs, that butchered puppy in my stewpot after Sundance isn't a dog or an animal any more; it's meat, just as the boards in my barn aren't trees or plants, they are wood. One could also hear the collective "eew!" from certain people at the horror of my dining on a cute, ffluffy puppy, and compare their truth to the fact that I find puppy to be a damn fine meal, especially after four days without food or water, bound to a tree,dancing and staring at the sun....every time I've had dog, I've had seconds-and that's a fact.

One could say that for some, the truth is that my marriage itself is an abomination, against the laws of nature and God-that would be their truth, not mine. While such sentiments are no longer enforcable by law in this country, I'd still say that the law of this country defends their right to believe them to be the truth.

And, in fact, so would I, even if I (obviously) think it's a bunch of crap. I might even argue about how it's a bunch of crap-sort of like saying the Democratic party is "the party of racism," or "gays are foisting their lifestyle on the rest of us," or "free market economies are best for a free society," or "we had to go to war in Iraq because Saddam had WMD, used them on his own people, supported al Qaeda and pissed off the little baby Jesus," or other such things that I believe to be nonsense. Even though I know that I'd have no chance of changing their mind, I'd go ahead and argue with them. In part, I'd do it from some dim hope that they could rise above what I see as their pettiness-let the warmth of my truth wipe away the goose-bumps of their fear-but I'm 48 years old, and I can count the times that that's actually happened for me on the fingers of one hand-and have pinky and thumb to spare! So, no, I don't do it to change other people's truths- let them get whatever they get out of it. I do it to put mine out there, because, for me, it is the truth.

And, I'll admit, I have an out-sized ego-I enjoy a good argument, and I like the idea of "proving" that I'm "right." I get to do that a little at work-I also have to swallow a lot of crap that is just not true-as well as having a limited basis in fact at best-in my field, I can't begin to tell you how angry and frustrated that can make me.

Well, I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. :lol:-no, strike the smiley-that isn't a joke. :lol:

So, in the other parts of my life, I put "my" truth out there. Let me have whatever I get out of it-argue they will, but they shouldn't expect me to change my mind, any more than I expect to change theirs....

....especially if I think that truth they're holding onto, and waving around like a baby who's smeared her crib with her own doing, is a bunch of crap.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually a dog is a canine which is a mammal which is an animal and a tree... well a tree can't be trusted

As to Is a dog not always an animal? Are trees not always plants?

You tell me

dog

–noun

1. a domesticated canid, Canis familiaris, bred in many varieties.
2. any carnivore of the dogfamily Canidae, having prominent canine teeth and, in the wild state, a long and slender muzzle, a deep-chested muscular body, a bushy tail, and large, erect ears. Compare CANID.
3. the male of such an animal.
4. any of various animals resembling a dog.
5. a despicable man or youth.
6. Informal. a fellow in general: a lucky dog.
7. dogs, Slang. FEET.
8. Slang.
a. something worthless or of extremely poor quality: That used car you bought is a dog.
b. an utter failure; flop: Critics say his new play is a dog.
9. Slang. an ugly, boring, or crude person.
10. Slang. HOT DOG.
11. (initial capital letter ) Astronomy. either of two constellations, Canis Major or Canis Minor.
12. Machinery.
a. any of various mechanical devices, as for gripping or holding something.
b. a projection on a moving part for moving steadily or for tripping another part with which it engages.
13. Also called gripper, nipper. Metalworking. a device on a drawbench for drawing the work through the die.
14. a cramp binding together two timbers.
15. an iron bar driven into a stone or timber to provide a means of lifting it.
16. an andiron; firedog.
17. Meteorology. a sundog or fogdog.
18. a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter D.

–verb (used with object)

19. to follow or track like a dog, esp. with hostile intent; hound.
20. to drive or chase with a dog or dogs.
21. Machinery. to fasten with dogs

tree

–noun

1. a plant having a permanently woody main stem or trunk, ordinarily growing to a considerable height, and usually developing branches at some distance from the ground.
2. any of various shrubs, bushes, and plants, as the banana, resembling a tree in form and size.
3. something resembling a tree in shape, as a clothes tree or a crosstree.
4. Mathematics, Linguistics. TREE DIAGRAM.
5. FAMILY TREE.
6. a pole, post, beam, bar, handle, or the like, as one forming part of some structure.
7. a shoetree or boot tree.
8. a saddletree.
9. a treelike group of crystals, as one forming in an electrolytic cell.
10. a gallows or gibbet.
11. the cross on which Christ was crucified.
12. Computers. a data structure organized like a tree whose nodes store data elements and whose branches represent pointers to other nodes in the tree.
13. CHRISTMAS TREE.

–verb (used with object)

14. to drive into or up a tree, as a pursued animal or person.
15. Informal. to put into a difficult position.
16. to stretch or shape on a tree, as a boot.
17. to furnish (a structure) with a tree.

 

[morph4me]

If I sit across from someone, hold my hand up palm facing me, and describe my hand and the person across from me describes my hand, the descriptions will be different, and both of us would be telling the truth. I'd say that truth is relative

Red wine contains antioxidants and is good for you in moderation. Red wind contains alcohol which kills brain cells and is bad for you. Both statements are true, so it appears to me that not only is truth relative, it's also not consistent.

The truth is that medicinations can save your life or kill you, depending on a variety of things, again relative and inconsistent. Seems that truth is really a fluid concept depending not necessarily on facts but also on perception, conditions, situations, and other variables

 

[Rich Parsons]

Inspired by:
Is it?
Dictionary.com defines it:

(I can sense a disagreement over the example given in 12 above...)

Is truth relative? Is a dog not always an animal? Are trees not always plants?

Don,

I once witnessed an accident. What I saw as the truth of the situation was not what others saw.

At one time everyone knew the world was flat. It was the truth. It is what everyone knew. Then later everyone knew that the sun rotated around the earth as everyone knows the earth is the center of the universe.

Are Dogs Wolves? Are house Cats Tigers?

I could say everything is made of Protons, Electrons and Neutrons, so everything is the same.

I could say to identical twins are not the same as they do not have exact same brain wave pattern or atomic signature or what have you.

So what someone perceives as the truth may not be the truth to others.

There are many who will say the Jesus is the Son of God. Others will say he is not. Both sides believe that they are right and that it is the truth.

Logic and Truth are not the same.

 

[Ninjamom]

Sounds to me like you're confusing 'truth' with 'perception'.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Sounds to me like you're confusing 'truth' with 'perception'.

But what is Perception. Perception is what you believe to be true. Does one consciously choose to perceive something as true that they know not to be true?



PS: I think the initial post was taking something out of context to try to make a point so they would not loose on all sides as they might have been loosing the discussion that spawned this one.

 

[elder999]

But what is Perception. Perception is what you believe to be true. Does one consciously choose to perceive something as true that they know not to be true?



PS: I think the initial post was taking something out of context to try to make a point so they would not loose on all sides as they might have been loosing the discussion that spawned this one.

Nah-he just wanted to avoid thread drift....plus, I think he was actually curious, and maybe a bit of an absolutist (Isnt a dog an animal?) There are moral absolutists-some of my wife's relatives, for instance-who simply don't believe in relative truth-their world is very black and white. Not saying that Don's one, just that it's a possibility.....nothing wrong with that, if that's the world you choose to live in.....

Oh, and NInjamom-perception is truth, and vice versa-until proven otherwise, anyway.....:lol:

There's no confusion about either with the 68 degree rule, though. The fact is, the truth isn't always a fact, and facts don't necessarily make the truth.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Now, isnt this just a semantical debate? I am just curious as to what the point is.

I say just decide on a working definition and be done with it.

Just my opinion.

 

[Jade Tigress]

There are two kinds of truth. Relative truth, and absolute truth. Relative truth = I'm hot/I'm cold. Absolute truth = the earth is round.

Believing something doesn't change absolute truth. It may make it true for you, but, you'd be wrong. You can't change absolute truth, relative truth can change.

We're debating two different kinds of truth here as if it were one.

 

[Archangel M]

Debate the "reality/truth" of a stick with a Zen master and he will simply whack you with it. THAT is the "truth" of the stick.

Spend all day debating what a dog is. It can still bite you.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Go to a courtroom for the facts.
Go to a hermit for the truth.
Go BK for a hamburger.
Go to Mcdonalds for salmonella.

Universal harmonies in action.

 

[elder999]

There are two kinds of truth. Relative truth, and absolute truth. Relative truth = I'm hot/I'm cold. Absolute truth = the earth is round.

Believing something doesn't change absolute truth. It may make it true for you, but, you'd be wrong. You can't change absolute truth, relative truth can change.

We're debating two different kinds of truth here as if it were one.

We can't always know the facts-thus, wha seems to be an absolute truth, often in fact, is not.

The earth is relatively round, but it's really a bit ovoid in shape....(and, as so many have pointed out, was once, for some, absolutely flat)

The earth spins on its axis, but it really wobbles.

The earth circles the sun, but again, it really follows an elliptical path-not to mention having absolutely been cirled by the sun for hundreds and hundred of years-in fact, for celestial navigation and astrology, the sun still circles the earth, as do all the other celestial bodies-why? Because it absolutely makes the math easier:lol:

For some, it's the truth that my marriage is an abomination, one that never should have been made legal or allowed to happen. We certainly shouldn't have been allowed to breed, let alone walk down the street together, where just anyone can see us. While thoughts like these, as I pointed out, no longer have the absolute force of law, people still have them, and it's still the absolute truth, while for others, there's nothing truthful-relative or otherwise-about it.For some, today, it's absolutely true that to be gay is a "lifestyle choice," and not the way that anyone is born naturally-while this is a complex and nuanced issue, and one worth arguing separately, it's worth pointing out that both sides of it are held by many to be "absolute truth."

For the scientist, like myself, there is no "absolute truth," or, at least, there are very few of them: the sky is blue, water is wet, women have secrets...no, those are another kind of truth,,,,sorry. :lol:

The scientist calls absolute truths "laws" for a reason. Everything else is relative. The division between fact and truth is a real one, though at times it may seem tenuous, pedantic and stritctly semantic.

Believing something can change absolute truth. For me, communion wafers were never more than little unleavened bread chips, and communion wine was just port, and bad port at that. Clearly, though, for my father-when he performed Communion-and my mother, even today-that bread and wine is absolutely changed. While it's not my truth, and it may not be yours, we have to accept and respect it as theirs-absolutely.

 

[punisher73]

I think in discussions like this people mean "THE TRUTH" that is what it is outside of viewpoints and limited perceptions.

Here is another thread that talked about this...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60698

It's 68 degrees out, is a fact from a certain perspective. Does it mean Farenheight (sp?), Celsius, Kelvin or some other measure of degrees? What is the relative humidity, what is the wind chill? That doesn't change "68 degrees" but it will change your perception of hot/cold.

Most of what we view is a label or description used to describe something. It reminds me of the old debates between Plato and Aristotle of is there a perfect form and all other forms are interpretations of the ideal, blah blah.

So when we percieve something it might be "true" to us as in not false. But, look at any optical illusion and we realize that our "truth" is very limited and flawed.

 

[elder999]

IIt's 68 degrees out, is a fact from a certain perspective. Does it mean Farenheight (sp?), Celsius, Kelvin or some other measure of degrees? What is the relative humidity, what is the wind chill? That doesn't change "68 degrees" but it will change your perception of hot/cold..

I'd just like to point out that 68 degrees celsius is goddam hot (154 F), whoever you are. :lol:

Likewise, 68 Kelvin is goddam cold (-337F)....

I've got a better religious example, and one that avoids the Christian muddle that is transubstantiation. Back in 2003, an army general said a bunch of stuff that got him in trouble:

I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol."

and Billy Grahams son Franklin has said :

There's no other way to God except through Christ...

Which a lot of people say, and agree with, and take to be absolute truth.In fact, they'll say it's a fact.

And for some, it's absolutely not true....

and for some, it may be true, and it may not be true....

and for some it's a whatever-as in, "whatever you have to believe to get you through this crap is fine with me, but I've got my own box of rocks over here, and whatever it is that's getting me through it is also fine with me..."

For the believer, belief is absolute truth-sometimes to the point where they'll drink the goddam kool-aid-much to the world's disbelief.....

 

[teekin]

I'd just like to point out that 68 degrees celsius is goddam hot (154 F), whoever you are. :lol:

Likewise, 68 Kelvin is goddam cold (-337F)....

I've got a better religious example, and one that avoids the Christian muddle that is transubstantiation. Back in 2003, an army general said a bunch of stuff that got him in trouble:



and Billy Grahams son Franklin has said :



Which a lot of people say, and agree with, and take to be absolute truth.In fact, they'll say it's a fact.

And for some, it's absolutely not true....

and for some, it may be true, and it may not be true....

and for some it's a whatever-as in, "whatever you have to believe to get you through this crap is fine with me, but I've got my own box of rocks over here, and whatever it is that's getting me through it is also fine with me..."

For the believer, belief is absolute truth-sometimes to the point where they'll drink the goddam kool-aid-much to the world's disbelief.....

Elder999, I like the way your mind works! My guess is you would be a great person to debate with over a chess board and a bottle of good brandy. :supcool:

Truth is subjective as it is perceived, a cognitive function, a value judgment. 68 degrees is hot (subjective truth)
Fact is objective, the results are the same for every trial, no matter the context. 68 rounds of 9mm to the base of the skull is fatal. (objective fact)
There is a concrete dividing line. You don't have to believe Jim Jones is "the Father", your still dead.:nuke:

Lori M

 

[kaizasosei]

the truth has to do with physical facts as well as perception and communication.

i could say that the world belongs to you, or that the world does specifically not belong to you, fact is, both are difficult to disprove or even deny.
in the world of martial arts as well as practically in all of human communication, the truth plays a big role.

Granted though, that the word truth can entail many things and can also manifest itself in aspects of communication, such as precision in expression or even realms of emotion.

j

 

[celtic_crippler]

Pluto was once a planet....back in 2006 that would have been the "truth" but today it is not. The truth is relative to time and circumstances IMHO.

 

[teekin]

Pluto was once a planet....back in 2006 that would have been the "truth" but today it is not. The truth is relative to time and circumstances IMHO.

Ahhhhhh! Truth is a Construct! :idea:
(Fact is not. Then what is Fact? ) Can Fact be drilled down like Truth can?
(Geez this like being back in the common area between the stacks at UW:supcool: )
Lori M