troubles with high roundhouse kick

[Manny]

Last night in class I did some stretching, not too much but not too little and at the end of the class afther the warm up and the basic techs includiying kicho shodan I did some kicking using palchagis.

My front kick was very good, to the level of my head, my side kick was pretty well to to troat level but my roundhouse kicks was terrible. Ar waist level was good even at chest level but at head level I could not crontol it, the kick was horrible, I could not maintain balance.

I don't get it, I can kick high with the front kick and the side kikck, but the easy roundhose it's a pain in the ......s, it seems I could not turn my body so well and my hips don't allow me to aligne my body and score the kick.

The front kicks like the an cahguis, bakat chaguis and chigo chaguis are not as complicated as the round house kick to the head level.

What can you tell me?

Manny

 

[Omar B]

Well since we have a Korea vs. Japan thing going on here I can tell you how I would work on it. Roundhouse height is all about chambering, your knee should be in line with where you want to go. sit on the ground with both legs spread as wide as you can in front of you, bend one leg's knee like you are chambering so that the heel of your foot is essentially pointing behind you. Now slow stretches leading with both arms above your head to both knees. No bouncing. Settle into the stretch and stay there for a 10 count.

Also, practice the kicks very slowly. Kick height has as much to do with flexibility as it does with the muscles in the legs, butt, back and core being able to put it up there and hold it. Do the kicks with perfect form slowly and upon extension hold it there for a 20 count. If you fall, waver or your muscles fail then do another 20. You'll start to nice your thighs getting more muscular and your kicks becoming more stable.

 

[ATC]

Simple, you don't kick enough. As we age our joints set and fuse a more and more without constant movement.

You have to move and rotate the joints often to keep them from locking down. Movement is the key.

Move your joints morning, afternoon, and night. Set a routine that involves dynamic, ballistic, and static stretching. Also include muscle strengthening as well.

As you age, more is needed not less. The young can get away with minimal movement and still retain pretty good flexibility. As we age wear and tear, as well as hardening and other factors come into play. Without constant movement you will lose it little by little. So move more. Kick more and stretch more.

Sorry but that is all you can do. Once, twice, even three, or four times a week won't cut it. Every day and multiple times a day is the only key at our age.

 

[terryl965]

Simple, you don't kick enough. As we age our joints set and fuse a more and more without constant movement.

You have to move and rotate the joints often to keep them from locking down. Movement is the key.

Move your joints morning, afternoon, and night. Set a routine that involves dynamic, ballistic, and static stretching. Also include muscle strengthening as well.

As you age, more is needed not less. The young can get away with minimal movement and still retain pretty good flexibility. As we age wear and tear, as well as hardening and other factors come into play. Without constant movement you will lose it little by little. So move more. Kick more and stretch more.

Sorry but that is all you can do. Once, twice, even three, or four times a week won't cut it. Every day and multiple times a day is the only key at our age.

I agree with ATC age has alot to do with it and the more we work on kicks the better they will become. Remember Manny you are not getting any younger

, and one day you will be able to do it or die trying.

 

[Manny]

Simple, you don't kick enough. As we age our joints set and fuse a more and more without constant movement.

You have to move and rotate the joints often to keep them from locking down. Movement is the key.

Move your joints morning, afternoon, and night. Set a routine that involves dynamic, ballistic, and static stretching. Also include muscle strengthening as well.

As you age, more is needed not less. The young can get away with minimal movement and still retain pretty good flexibility. As we age wear and tear, as well as hardening and other factors come into play. Without constant movement you will lose it little by little. So move more. Kick more and stretch more.

Sorry but that is all you can do. Once, twice, even three, or four times a week won't cut it. Every day and multiple times a day is the only key at our age.

Yes, I don't kick enough, this fascitis plantar is killing my TKD, my joints are becoming bad with age. This afthernoon when talking with wife I told her about to go to dojang alone to do only stretching the days I am off classes.

Manny

 

[jthomas1600]

Manny, you're light years ahead of me so I would not presume to be able to give you advice. I did notice however that you mentioned you did these after a class. I wonder if part of your issue today wasn't fatigue. I know with the foot problems you haven't been able to train as much as you'd like. Also, it doesn't mater wither it TKD, playing the guitar, or what ever... sometimes I just have days where I suck. It seems for no reason, just some times I have off days.

 

[Manny]

Manny, you're light years ahead of me so I would not presume to be able to give you advice. I did notice however that you mentioned you did these after a class. I wonder if part of your issue today wasn't fatigue. I know with the foot problems you haven't been able to train as much as you'd like. Also, it doesn't mater wither it TKD, playing the guitar, or what ever... sometimes I just have days where I suck. It seems for no reason, just some times I have off days.

Thank you, maybe this thing is mental, but as we get old our body thends to not obey us anymore, my mind tells me I can do the kicks as I did them when I was a lot of younger but my body complains and aches.

Something I did notice it's my sambonim does not kick so high too, I know in his erly days he was very good but maybe aging is afecting him too, however he is one of the best sambonims I have working out with, his technik is very good however his kicks are not as high.

Yes the thing about my foot is bad, before May I was TRAINING 4 nights per week, two times TKD and two times Kenpo Karate and I mean TRAINING very well so my kicks were not as bad but since I put away training my joints seems to get stiff.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes, I don't kick enough, this fascitis plantar is killing my TKD, my joints are becoming bad with age. This afthernoon when talking with wife I told her about to go to dojang alone to do only stretching the days I am off classes.

Manny

Lately Ive been getting to class very early and spending a good 30-45 minutes just stretching the whole time. Then when class starts we do a stretch as part of the warm up, so by the time Im actually doing any kicking Im feeling very flexible. I think its only the young ones who can roll up 5 minutes before class and perform at their best.

 

[StudentCarl]

Manny, keep at it!

In our age group you just do the best you can today...then try to do better tomorrow. I take the view that getting out there and pushing myself as hard as I can is a victory by itself. Many of the parents think I'm different from them (they think they're too old for TKD), but I just have the mindset of a kid: I just do my best and have fun; I don't care if I mess up since I'm learning. I may not get better today or tomorrow, but time is on my side and I am improving over time. If youth is no longer on my side, at least I have the hard-won confidence of life experience.

Any day you can get out of bed is a good day to push yourself. My instructor says there are three "P"s of teaching: patience, persistence, and praise. They apply to us "seasoned" students as well. You don't deserve any less than the kids do, so I hope you practice these when you train yourself.

I plan to be doing this when I'm 70. It doesn't matter that my TKD won't look the same as it does at 47. It will be my best and it will be good for my mind, body and spirit. Remember that it's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Best wishes Manny.

 

[Manny]

Lately Ive been getting to class very early and spending a good 30-45 minutes just stretching the whole time. Then when class starts we do a stretch as part of the warm up, so by the time Im actually doing any kicking Im feeling very flexible. I think its only the young ones who can roll up 5 minutes before class and perform at their best.

This is something I tried bit the matt is crowded right these days, and there is not room enough, how ever is worth considering again this.

Manny

 

[Manny]

Manny, keep at it!

In our age group you just do the best you can today...then try to do better tomorrow. I take the view that getting out there and pushing myself as hard as I can is a victory by itself. Many of the parents think I'm different from them (they think they're too old for TKD), but I just have the mindset of a kid: I just do my best and have fun; I don't care if I mess up since I'm learning. I may not get better today or tomorrow, but time is on my side and I am improving over time. If youth is no longer on my side, at least I have the hard-won confidence of life experience.

Any day you can get out of bed is a good day to push yourself. My instructor says there are three "P"s of teaching: patience, persistence, and praise. They apply to us "seasoned" students as well. You don't deserve any less than the kids do, so I hope you practice these when you train yourself.

I plan to be doing this when I'm 70. It doesn't matter that my TKD won't look the same as it does at 47. It will be my best and it will be good for my mind, body and spirit. Remember that it's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Best wishes Manny.

Nice way of thinking and I really apreciate it alot, you have inspired me, I can not live in the past, I have to live my present with aches and everithing, infact aches has never stoped me of doing TKD so maybe I have just to readjust my working out a little.

Manny

 

[Manny]

I have some news. Last night I came to dojang very stiff, in fact I felt unconfortable, I started to do some stretches but my joints were so stiff I could not stand it. I need it a warm up, my joints need some lube so I did some light joging till I stasted to sweat and becoming warm, my foot complained but I did it, then I used a partner and wihtout rushing up I did stretching.

I used half an hour to do this and then partner and I used the heavy bag to do kicks, so we began with the S.O.B. roundhouse kick, I notice my body turns with out disconfort and my kicks were fine, smashing the heavy bag with authority to mid section level (I am 6 feet tall), hummmm nice, good kick so what about head level?? well I tried it, the higest kicks landed with authority were at shoulder level!!!! not bad!! and my stability was good.

With my left leg it was not so high but notice my mid level kicks were strong and stable.

I think this was very nice for me, I did front kicks and side kicks using the heavy bag and even they were not to head level all went to the torso area and with a big snap and leaving a profund mark in the heavy bag.

I felt great, the timing was right, the balance very nice and the kicks slamed the heavy bag very good, all my 40+ years body and joints need it was a very good warm up and stretching.

Yes, I have to pay for the kicking, my foot aches but..... what the .... this is the price.

Manny

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Manny,
Good to hear that you can kick higher with warming up and stretching first. I've read a few of your posts about wanting to kick higher, and unlike other people who say "practice kicks", I would advise to stretch much more, specifically side splits. Being able to kick high involves 3 things: coordination, muscles pulling your legs up, and muscles NOT pulling your leg down. If you are not flexible and your groin resists your legs opening up, developing stronger hip abductors for instance will not be enough to kick high....you need to remove the resistance.

Whenever people say "I wish I could kick high", my first question is "what is your stretching programme?" Roundhouse and side kick need the flexibility arising from working side splits; front kick and axe kicks use the flexibility arising from front splits.

In your case, you are happy with your hamstring flexibility, but not happy with your groin flexibility. Your are only content with your groin flexibility when you are at your most flexible. I would advise you need to become much more flexible, so that you have enough flexibility when you are cold. You can't tell someone to give you 15 minutes before you are ready to defend yourself

Now specifically for you, I would suggest you work on your side split stretches daily, for 4-6 sets. Personally, I like using chairs for working side splits and balancing with a 3rd chair, because padded kitchen chairs are comfortable for the feet. First set, don't push it - open up , use PNF stretching by contracting for 10 seconds, then relax and open up a little more. Only try for your near maximum at then end, on the 4th or 5th set. I find that there is a huge difference between the 1st and the 5th set.

As background, I have the opposite...good side splits but poor front splits. That happened because I started stretching about 1 year before starting TKD. A friend told me all you need is side splits, so that's all I did! Then I found out front splits are needed for high front kicks and axe kicks. So now, I do side splits a couple times a week, but work front splits about 5 times a week.

Hope the helps Manny. Good to read your many posts Manny!

 

[ATC]

Manny,
Good to hear that you can kick higher with warming up and stretching first. I've read a few of your posts about wanting to kick higher, and unlike other people who say "practice kicks", I would advise to stretch much more, specifically side splits. Being able to kick high involves 3 things: coordination, muscles pulling your legs up, and muscles NOT pulling your leg down. If you are not flexible and your groin resists your legs opening up, developing stronger hip abductors for instance will not be enough to kick high....you need to remove the resistance.

Whenever people say "I wish I could kick high", my first question is "what is your stretching programme?" Roundhouse and side kick need the flexibility arising from working side splits; front kick and axe kicks use the flexibility arising from front splits.

In your case, you are happy with your hamstring flexibility, but not happy with your groin flexibility. Your are only content with your groin flexibility when you are at your most flexible. I would advise you need to become much more flexible, so that you have enough flexibility when you are cold. You can't tell someone to give you 15 minutes before you are ready to defend yourself

Now specifically for you, I would suggest you work on your side split stretches daily, for 4-6 sets. Personally, I like using chairs for working side splits and balancing with a 3rd chair, because padded kitchen chairs are comfortable for the feet. First set, don't push it - open up , use PNF stretching by contracting for 10 seconds, then relax and open up a little more. Only try for your near maximum at then end, on the 4th or 5th set. I find that there is a huge difference between the 1st and the 5th set.

As background, I have the opposite...good side splits but poor front splits. That happened because I started stretching about 1 year before starting TKD. A friend told me all you need is side splits, so that's all I did! Then I found out front splits are needed for high front kicks and axe kicks. So now, I do side splits a couple times a week, but work front splits about 5 times a week.

Hope the helps Manny. Good to read your many posts Manny!

Welcome to MT.

As for you post, you should get a bit more info. You are partially correct but if you ignore the strengthening of the muscles used in kicking then you still won't be able to kick high at all. Also you do not really need static stretching all that much as you do need dynamic flexibility. You do need both but static stretching alone won't enable you to kick high properly.

Many people that can swing their leg high are not kicking. They are letting momentum bring the leg up and down, thus having a slow improper weak kick, if we can call it a kick.

If you have static flexibility you have a slight advantage over those that don't but not a great advantage. Those that don't have full splits but have some static flexibility but more important dynamic flexibility plus muscle strength throughout that dynamic range will be the best kickers of all and will have the better high kicks. They will have more power and actually perform the proper kicking technique.

Only kicking and kicking properly can develop the strength needed throughout the range of motion of the kick. No amount of stretching will help you kick high without kicking and kicking high. How do you know if you have strength or no strength throughout the range of the kick? Simple, Just try to perform your highest kick in slow motion. You can even hold onto a wall or object to help keep your balance. If you can lift the knee high and then put the kick out from a high knee in slow motion (10-15 seconds) then you have the needed strength. If not then you need to work on it. The slow mo kick should also be fully extended as well, this means knee locked out fully.

I know many flexible people that cannot kick high but just as many non flexible people that can.

You can kick high without full splits but you will never kick high with full splits and weak muscles. And if you don't have either then you are really in trouble. But kicking and kicking high and often, will develop your kicks high, faster than just doing splits or stretching alone.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

As for you post, you should get a bit more info. You are partially correct but if you ignore the strengthening of the muscles used in kicking then you still won't be able to kick high at all. Also you do not really need static stretching all that much as you do need dynamic flexibility. You do need both but static stretching alone won't enable you to kick high properly.

Many people that can swing their leg high are not kicking. They are letting momentum bring the leg up and down, thus having a slow improper weak kick, if we can call it a kick.

If you have static flexibility you have a slight advantage over those that don't but not a great advantage. Those that don't have full splits but have some static flexibility but more important dynamic flexibility plus muscle strength throughout that dynamic range will be the best kickers of all and will have the better high kicks. They will have more power and actually perform the proper kicking technique.

Only kicking and kicking properly can develop the strength needed throughout the range of motion of the kick. No amount of stretching will help you kick high without kicking and kicking high. How do you know if you have strength or no strength throughout the range of the kick? Simple, Just try to perform your highest kick in slow motion. You can even hold onto a wall or object to help keep your balance. If you can lift the knee high and then put the kick out from a high knee in slow motion (10-15 seconds) then you have the needed strength. If not then you need to work on it. The slow mo kick should also be fully extended as well, this means knee locked out fully.

I know many flexible people that cannot kick high but just as many non flexible people that can.

You can kick high without full splits but you will never kick high with full splits and weak muscles. And if you don't have either then you are really in trouble. But kicking and kicking high and often, will develop your kicks high, faster than just doing splits or stretching alone.

Well I guess we disagree. You state that I am ignoring that you need strong muscles....I didn't ignore it..I said you need muscles to lift the leg and a lack of resistance on the other side. In Manny's case, I was stating that I would bet the issue is more of resistive force than a lack of positive force.

I agree that there is a difference between dynamic and static flexibility, but the bottom line is that if you can't get your leg to head level, you can't do head kicks. If you can only get your leg to head level with a strong momentum, it's because you lack flexibility. Sure you have the dynamic flexibility to do it, but if you had additional static flexibility, your dynamic flexibility would be even higher. Finally, although your guidance to kick kick and kick is beneficial I still firmly believe that stretching in a controlled fashion will be more beneficial for a given amount of time (e.g., 10 minutes per day); the reason is in particular for Manny, based on his statement that front kicks are good but roundhouse less good, it is the groin flexibility (improved by side split stetches) holding him back the most. Full splits are not needed I agree, but for head height, you should be able to get withing say 1/2 foot. When you are cold and can get within say 10 inches, you'll still have enough flexibility to kick high enough when cold.

 

[ATC]

Well I guess we disagree. You state that I am ignoring that you need strong muscles....I didn't ignore it..I said you need muscles to lift the leg and a lack of resistance on the other side. In Manny's case, I was stating that I would bet the issue is more of resistive force than a lack of positive force.

I agree that there is a difference between dynamic and static flexibility, but the bottom line is that if you can't get your leg to head level, you can't do head kicks. If you can only get your leg to head level with a strong momentum, it's because you lack flexibility. Sure you have the dynamic flexibility to do it, but if you had additional static flexibility, your dynamic flexibility would be even higher. Finally, although your guidance to kick kick and kick is beneficial I still firmly believe that stretching in a controlled fashion will be more beneficial for a given amount of time (e.g., 10 minutes per day); the reason is in particular for Manny, based on his statement that front kicks are good but roundhouse less good, it is the groin flexibility (improved by side split stetches) holding him back the most. Full splits are not needed I agree, but for head height, you should be able to get withing say 1/2 foot. When you are cold and can get within say 10 inches, you'll still have enough flexibility to kick high enough when cold.

Nope not true. Kicking cold is all about the dynamic flexibility only. I myself am in my later 40's and cannot even come close to doing any splits. I would say that I am about 120 degrees total when really really warm and stretched out. I am 6'2" so that puts my stretch at about my neck height when warmed up and stretched out. Cold I would say I am 90-95 degrees at best. But I can kick at anytime over my head with any kick. I can hold front kicks at about 110 degrees and all side kicks at my cold max of 90-95 degrees.

As I said, static flexibility is nice but is not really the most important part for kicking high.

As for you negative and positive muscle resistance, it just does not make sense. If you muscle cannot lift your leg but you can use the force of gravity to stretch you further than you can kick then the only issue is muscle strength need to lift the leg. Not more flexibility on the opposite side.

You have to understand the mechanics of the process. When you actively stretch you have two forces at work and in contrast. One muscle pulls while the other simply relaxes. To simply extend your leg from the knee you don't stretch on both sides but rather contract the quads while your hamstrings relax. Now if your quads are not flexible it won't affect the extending of your leg at all. However you do need to have some level of flexibility in your hamstrings. glutes, and calves. The stronger your quads the easier to lift or extend the leg and the more you will be able to actively stretch the hamstrings. Notice I stated actively not static. Dynamic stretching benefits best from active type stretching best. This is why it is crucial to have a strong muscles throughout the entire range of motion. With kicking this will be the case with multiple muscle groups.

This is the reason why most martial arts schools have you do silly drills and games to build these muscles and why you kick and kick a lot. Drills like duck walk, lunges, frog jumps (low and high types), jumping and hundred other things that most student have no idea of why they are doing them. You work muscles like abductors and adductors, all the muscles in the groin, the quads and the hamstrings. By default a strong muscle is more flexible than a weak one.

Read a book by Tom Kurz. He explains all this very well. The link below will detail some of this for you and give you better understanding of things.
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/thomas-kurz/stretch-yourself-5.htm

Even in your original post you do some things unknowingly it seems that help develop strength in the muscle needed to have better active flexibility. The one thing that you stated was to use ....PNF stretching by contracting for 10 seconds... This is a simple isometric exercise that does a couple of things, one of them being muscle strengthening. Use the link above to understand better.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Manny indicated that when warm, his kicks are pretty good. It's when he is cold that it's an issue. Hence, I feel he would benefit from increasing flexibility (i.e, reducing the force needed to raise the leg). I suppose, if we we talking about cars, you would say to increase horsepower, I am saying make sure the parking brake isn't on! By not being flexible, a person has to overcome more resistance to get a leg up.

You say he should improve dynamic flexibility, which is true. He can however improve dynamic flexibility by improving static flexibility. The two are not independent, though not 100% correlated either. If it pleases you, I will say instead of static stretches, he could improve his dynamic flexibility by doing exercises such as leaning against a wall, and kicking high to each side alternating side to side. You like Kurtz, I like Wallace. I agree with Bill Wallace's stretches (which you can find on youtube)....if you don't so be it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I dont really know anything about static/dyamic flexibility etc but I do know that I am not even close to doing the splits (unless very warm, after heaps of stretching) and yet I can kick at head height (Im 6'2") easily, even when cold. I put this down to heaps of kicking, I do a fair bit of stretching but I wouldnt say I do heaps. I believe technique plays a vital role in high kicking, Ive heard many students say they cant kick high due to poor flexibility and then when I watch them kick I notice their technique is very poor. Ive also seen students with poor flexibility and great technique and to watch them kick you wouldnt even know they had poor flexibility.

 

[ATC]

Manny indicated that when warm, his kicks are pretty good. It's when he is cold that it's an issue. Hence, I feel he would benefit from increasing flexibility (i.e, reducing the force needed to raise the leg). I suppose, if we we talking about cars, you would say to increase horsepower, I am saying make sure the parking brake isn't on! By not being flexible, a person has to overcome more resistance to get a leg up.

You say he should improve dynamic flexibility, which is true. He can however improve dynamic flexibility by improving static flexibility. The two are not independent, though not 100% correlated either. If it pleases you, I will say instead of static stretches, he could improve his dynamic flexibility by doing exercises such as leaning against a wall, and kicking high to each side alternating side to side. You like Kurtz, I like Wallace. I agree with Bill Wallace's stretches (which you can find on youtube)....if you don't so be it.

Guess you only read selective parts of the article from the link. Static stretching will not do anthing to your dynamic flexibility. Read why Bill, Chuck, others have had to have hip replacements done. Super Foot is one of my favorite martial artist and he too worked on dynamic flexibility alot, but also worked the static stuff way too much. For one thing you should never kick after doing static stretches. Static stretches should only be done at the end of your workout and that is it. It has been proven that after static stretching you lose 20-25% of your power when kicking.

If Manny is having an issue with cold kicking then he definately needs to work on static stretches. Really that simple.

 

[Kami]

Also, practice the kicks very slowly. Kick height has as much to do with flexibility as it does with the muscles in the legs, butt, back and core being able to put it up there and hold it. Do the kicks with perfect form slowly and upon extension hold it there for a 20 count. If you fall, waver or your muscles fail then do another 20. You'll start to nice your thighs getting more muscular and your kicks becoming more stable.

I am new to Martial Arts. Proper kicks have been one of many major struggles. This suggestion has been the most useful of any feedback I have found so far. Thank you.