Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[drop bear]

So, yeah, give folks the benefit, as long as they aren't making outlandish claims. And we also have to acknowledge that there are probably things we each think to be true (especially as concerns what does and does not work in given situations and from various systems) where we are incorrect.

Which we can test by either seeing it work. Seeing it not work or having the guy who claims it works start looking for ways never to show their method.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Wouldn't taking techniques from guys who have a single clue what they are on about be more efficient?

At least I would know they work somewhere.

So if you're in person, you can know if they have a clue of what they're on about. If it's online you don't know. So either way take the technique by itself and see if you can make it work. Ask your instuctor and/or training partners if they can make it work. If no one can, ignore that guy for the future.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wouldn't taking techniques from guys who have a single clue what they are on about be more efficient?

At least I would know they work somewhere.

If A tells B that "a groin kick followed by a face punch work", if B can't make it work, that can be B's problem and not A's problem.

 

[drop bear]

If A tells B that "a groin kick followed by a face punch work", if B can't make it work, that can be B's problem and not A's problem.

Yeah but A can't make it work. Nobody can make it work. That is the whole point.

There are top level strikers, top level wrestlers, top level leg lock specialist, even top level fancy kick specialists. And so on for all sorts of martial skills we could conceivably want to learn.

Who are the top level eye gouges specialist?

 

[drop bear]

So if you're in person, you can know if they have a clue of what they're on about. If it's online you don't know. So either way take the technique by itself and see if you can make it work. Ask your instuctor and/or training partners if they can make it work. If no one can, ignore that guy for the future.

Plenty of people have online evidence that their method works.

What we are looking at is people who don't make it work. Teaching a method to people who don't make it work.

They are not willing to put their methods to any sort of test.

This is not the Danaher death squad validating their leg lock method by going out and beating the best in the world. And me going. Well I think leg locks are silly.

This is people saying a method works with absolutely no way to back their claim.

Why would then I try to make that method work?

If people want to innovate they can't do that by hiding. They have to get pout there and challenge those ideas.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Plenty of people have online evidence that their method works.

What we are looking at is people who don't make it work. Teaching a method to people who don't make it work.

They are not willing to put their methods to any sort of test.

This is not the Danaher death squad validating their leg lock method by going out and beating the best in the world. And me going. Well I think leg locks are silly.

This is people saying a method works with absolutely no way to back their claim.

Why would then I try to make that method work?

If people want to innovate they can't do that by hiding. They have to get pout there and challenge those ideas.

So if someone doesn't want to prove it, to you, and others do, go with the people who have proven it how you want. The other people shouldn't matter to you. Those people do prove it to the people close to them, or they don't. It's up to those people whether it works. And up to their students to have proof of it. Not up to them to prove it to you, or up to you to verify it for their students.

 

[drop bear]

So if someone doesn't want to prove it, to you, and others do, go with the people who have proven it how you want. The other people shouldn't matter to you. Those people do prove it to the people close to them, or they don't. It's up to those people whether it works. And up to their students to have proof of it. Not up to them to prove it to you, or up to you to verify it for their students.

You seem to think that is is about my feelings or something. Rather than evidence being the basic identification process that determines what exists and what doesn't.

If we want to treat martial arts as theological pursuit then yeah. But to use as a practical tool I don't see how your method works.

Which is probably why a martial art doesn't work.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You seem to think that is is about my feelings or something. Rather than evidence being the basic identification process that determines what exists and what doesn't.

If we want to treat martial arts as theological pursuit then yeah. But to use as a practical tool I don't see how your method works.

Which is probably why a martial art doesn't work.

I just don't get why it effects you. Why individuals from across the globe need to prove their worth to someone across the globe. Especially if their goal isn't to teach across the globe.

If the goal is to teach far and wide then yeah, far and wide need to accept their abilities. But if their goal is to teach people in their area then only those people need to see proof. And there's no reason to put that proof on video since you can just show it to all of them face to face (this pandemic being the exception)

So I guess what I'm saying is, if they shownthe relevant people the evidence, that's all that matters. If you're not a peospective student, you're not relevant, so they've got nothing to gain from showing you the evidence.

 

[drop bear]

I just don't get why it effects you. Why individuals from across the globe need to prove their worth to someone across the globe. Especially if their goal isn't to teach across the globe.

If the goal is to teach far and wide then yeah, far and wide need to accept their abilities. But if their goal is to teach people in their area then only those people need to see proof. And there's no reason to put that proof on video since you can just show it to all of them face to face (this pandemic being the exception)

So I guess what I'm saying is, if they shownthe relevant people the evidence, that's all that matters. If you're not a peospective student, you're not relevant, so they've got nothing to gain from showing you the evidence.

They have nothing to gain by showing anyone the evidence.

A results based martial arts is always going to be harder, develop more slowly and produce less effect than just lying to people.

I just don't think that is ethical.

So we ultimately have a moral impasse there.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They have nothing to gain by showing anyone the evidence.

A results based martial arts is always going to be harder, develop more slowly and produce less effect than just lying to people.

I just don't think that is ethical.

So we ultimately have a moral impasse there.

They have nothing to gain by showing you the evidence. They have everything to gain by showing it to potential clients/customers.

I don't think it's a moral impasse so much as a philosophical one. I think a business will be more successful by being upfront in what it offers. In this case martial ability, and how it is/isn't effective. You seem to think a business will be more successful by lying about what it offers. Again in this case martial ability, and how it is/isn't effective.

My issue with your thinking is that eventually any business that is lying about what it has to offer will get found out, and go under. A restaurant that isn't offering quality meals will see a decrease in people showing up. A tutoring service that isn't helping their students, even if they sign a contract, will stop gaining new students and go under. A hospital that doesn't treat people well will stop having people show up there. And a martial arts studio that doesn't teach people martial arts will eventually not get new students and go under.

You seem to think that martial arts is this magic voodoo that goes against the free market, and I guess I just don't understand why.

 

[drop bear]

They have nothing to gain by showing you the evidence. They have everything to gain by showing it to potential clients/customers.

Why? we have this highly developed system designed specifically to avoid showing evidence.

And if someone asks for evidence they are the bad guy.

Provided the aim isn't to develop any sort of martial arts skill. It works fine.

 

[drop bear]

My issue with your thinking is that eventually any business that is lying about what it has to offer will get found out, and go under. A restaurant that isn't offering quality meals will see a decrease in people showing up. A tutoring service that isn't helping their students, even if they sign a contract, will stop gaining new students and go under. A hospital that doesn't treat people well will stop having people show up there. And a martial arts studio that doesn't teach people martial arts will eventually not get new students and go under.

How may weight loss supliments actually result in weight loss?

How many natural healing products do anything to create healing?

People still buy healing crystals and they don't do anything. But they are huge buisness.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Why? we have this highly developed system designed specifically to avoid showing evidence.

And if someone asks for evidence they are the bad guy.

Provided the aim isn't to develop any sort of martial arts skill. It works fine.

What system are you referring to?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

How may weight loss supliments actually result in weight loss?

Most of those don't require ongoing customer commitment. They focus on global access, getting as many people as possible to try/buy them. And within a couple months they're advocating/selling something new. No chance for the traditional response in a local market.

If a private training facility was found to offer classes promising weight loss, and they did not help at all, do you think that facility would last? I think that's a more apt comparison.

 

[drop bear]

What system are you referring to?

This one you are using. Where evidence isn't as important as feelings.

I mean it is pretty easy to convince a guy they can fight. Just so long as they never have to fight anyone.

We don't have to work hard to get out of a grapple. Just eye gouge them and they roll off you.

 

[drop bear]

Most of those don't require ongoing customer commitment. They focus on global access, getting as many people as possible to try/buy them. And within a couple months they're advocating/selling something new. No chance for the traditional response in a local market.

If a private training facility was found to offer classes promising weight loss, and they did not help at all, do you think that facility would last? I think that's a more apt comparison.

Absolutely if it was easier than actually loosing weight.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This one you are using. Where evidence isn't as important as feelings.

I mean it is pretty easy to convince a guy they can fight. Just so long as they never have to fight anyone.

We don't have to work hard to get out of a grapple. Just eye gouge them and they roll off you.

I haven't mentioned feelings at all. I've mentioned evidence. Just that they don't have to provide evidence to someone halfway across the globe.

I think the difference is I'm assuming the basic person is capable of not falling for ********. You're assuming they'll believe any lie they're told.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Absolutely if it was easier than actually loosing weight.

That's not been my experience. From the facilities near me, if they don't offer results, people stop going. And they lose business. And within a year they close.

 

[drop bear]

I haven't mentioned feelings at all. I've mentioned evidence. Just that they don't have to provide evidence to someone halfway across the globe.

I think the difference is I'm assuming the basic person is capable of not falling for ********. You're assuming they'll believe any lie they're told.

Yeah. If they don't have the tools to determine truth from fiction because we support the idea than nobody has to show evidence then people will be fooled.

I mean people are fooled by exactly this every day.

 

[drop bear]

That's not been my experience. From the facilities near me, if they don't offer results, people stop going. And they lose business. And within a year they close.

But of course you don't need to show me evidence.

Now here is the problem. It has been my experience that that they thrive and I don't need to show you evidence.

And then this conversation turns to a straight up mess where we try to make a case for ourselves using just a big sack of dumb probably.