To Kill or Not to Kill

[MJS]

True, 9/11 did make alot of people in the world sit back and realize what the police, emts, firefighters, etc. go through on a day to day basis. I was watching the NEWS today. This took place in NY I believe. It showed several police officers hitting and kneeing a guy they were trying to get into the crusier. This was all being videotaped by a friend of the guy being arrested. Upon first look it seems like they are pounding the crap out of him, but the cops in turn say that he was fighting with them, resisting, and refusing to get into the car. Its funny when people tape things, because when they are shown on TV, it seems like they only show the part with the cops kicking the s**t out of the guy, NOT what the guy did prior to all this.

Now, I'm NOT saying that anyone deserves to get a beating, but when you are resisting arrest, refusing to let them cuff you, get on the ground, put your hands up, etc. then I feel that the cops have every right to do what is necessary to make you comply. If they tell you to get on the ground and you don't, then I see nothing wrong with them slamming you down on the ground. Why should the cop take a beating, because this dirt bag doesnt want to go to jail??

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by OULobo
Are you sure about this. I think you are allowed to wound if you feel your life is in danger. If a guy 20ft. away has a machete, and sees I have a gun, but still starts to dash towards me, could I not shoot him in the leg and keep him there until the police arrive. Lets say I have a bad knee and can't run away. I just can't belive the law would be designed form me to kill instead of wound if given the option. I know that is a ton of what ifs, but that's kind of what laws are designed to deal with; theoretical situations.

Yes, I am completely sure. We went over this quite a bit in my handgun course and my recent training partner trains the SWAT team in my city and we talked about it.

Like ETorbin said, a handgun is considered lethal force. When you produce your weapon you have put everyone around you in danger of it misfireing and killing one of them. This is why its illegal to draw without the need. When you fire the gun you put everyone around you at risk of being hit my a ricochet (sp?) or a missed shot. Hince again, you being in the wrong. If the Machette guy closes the 20ft distance and you have warned him, then he is intending to kill you.

The law isn't designed to make you kill rather than injur, but to protect everyone in every situation and shooting at someones leg or arm could result in a inosent getting hit.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Shooting someone in the leg??? Come on people, lets wake up here! Please! Like I said in an earlier post, how many of us, with the excpetion of LEO and military actually train under stressful conditions, low light, moving targets? Why shoot someone in a small target when you might miss, and this guy with the big knife, closes on you and kills you? Are you going to waste time shooting the leg or the center mass? Of course, the center. Its a big difference whne your life depends on that shot and when you are relaxed and just practicing. Would you really want to take that chance that the shot is going to miss the leg? You might not have time for a 2nd one, and that may very well be the end of your life. If someone was running at me with a knife, and after I tell him repeatedly to drop it and he does not and keeps advancing, I'm shooting to kill! If its my life or his, and I'm the one making that choice, 100% of the time its gonna be him.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...to state what should be obvious, you don't shoot at, "center mass," if you absolutely must shoot, for legal/moral reasons. You shoot at the fattest part of the body, because otherwise--even at very close range--you will miss, since a) you are a bit excited and nervous; b) it's a lot easier to move limbs than the center of the body.

I might add that unless you're a professional, nearly all of these situations are in fact avoidable with advance planning and simple precautions...

Oh well. Incidentally, to clear up a misunderstanding...a shotgun with birdshot at close range, if you hit the guy, apparently has roughly the same effect on a body as a deer slug because the shot-pattern hasn't spread out yet. You do not want to get hit with a deer slug...

Guns. Ick.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...to state what should be obvious, you don't shoot at, "center mass," if you absolutely must shoot, for legal/moral reasons. You shoot at the fattest part of the body, because otherwise--even at very close range--you will miss, since a) you are a bit excited and nervous; b) it's a lot easier to move limbs than the center of the body.

I think we are talking about the same thing though. "center mass" is basically the biggest part of the body, and it also induces the "stop shot". Shooting someone in the stomach will not produce the quick stop that a shot to the chest will.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...to state what should be obvious, you don't shoot at, "center mass," if you absolutely must shoot, for legal/moral reasons. You shoot at the fattest part of the body, because otherwise--even at very close range--you will miss, since a) you are a bit excited and nervous; b) it's a lot easier to move limbs than the center of the body.

Isnt the center going to be the biggest part anyway? I would imagine thats why cops wear a vest, due to the fact that if they get shot, wouldnt you think that the bad guy is going to shoot for the chest? Granted there are those times, when they might get hit in the head, or leg, but they wear the vest to protect the vital organs that will be getting shot at.

My def. of center mass: The entire upper torso--chest, midsection, stomach.

Mike

 

[sercuerdasfigther]

if someone comes looking to do me severe or deadly harm i kill them or die trying. its not being tough or macho its survival. i believe in live and let live , but if you start i will finish.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by ChineseKempoAL
And BRAVO to your wife for lettin' that side kick fly. Not to many woman I know would do anything but freak out and freeze. :asian:

A little stupid as well though. I try adn tell her that was a stupid move for her, one of them could have gotten a hold of her while I was still in the car. But, I am a little proud of her for it!


7sm

 

[ETorbin]

My definition of center mass is the largest target available to me. For example, if my attacker is behind cover with only his head showing, the center of his head is his center of mass as far as I am concerned.

At 20 feet someone armed with a machete is threat to your life if you believe that he has the intent to harm you. The Tueler drill demonstrated that a man can close 21 feet in approximately the same amount of time that it takes for someone to draw and fire a weapon.

ETorbin

 

[MJS]

I saw a vidoe once comparing the gun to the knife. It showed how much faster the guy with the knife can close on the guy with the gun. He barely had enough time to draw the gun and aim, before the knife got close enough to cut. Its amazing how fast someone who knows how to use a knife can inflict great damage.

Mike

 

[clapping_tiger]

The funny thing about the law is that it was written to interpretation. That is why we can debate for days on this and still not come to any real middle ground. Here is some of the Wisconsin state statues.

939.48 "Self Defense and the Defense of Other"

A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or termination what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference.

The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to him or herself.

So it open to interpretation. A 230 pound male is not in the same imminent danger as a 120 pound female if confronted with a 200 pound assailant. same holds true for the use of deadly force. You know when you are in great danger and you know when you are in danger. Something not reasonable is something like, I kicked his @ss because he called me a punk. Remember, to justify using deadly force. You need to make the assumption that this person is out to kill OR cause you permanent bodily harm. Just remember that if you do decide to defend yourself. You do not hold back you blows. You alter the targets. It looks a lot worse to bystanders (if there are any) if you have to hit the guy 15 times, than if you hit him once. This statement may cause some more debate, but think about it. If you get into a situation where you need to attack, don't take a chance. Get it over with and call the cops. When they come tell them what happened, how you felt in danger, what clues you read that you were in danger. It is my opinion that everyone in any type of self defense class needs to take adrenalin stress training. That way if you do get into a bad situation, you can keep your head and make fairly rational decisions.

As far as doing what the cops say. I say absolutely. You may not have to sign anything or say anything. But if they tell you go stand over there, you do it. Get down. You do it. This is not up for debate in my opinion. These guys and gals are out there dealing with threats everyday that most of us don't even want to deal with. And you may be the nicest guy in the world, but they have no way of knowing that. So make their job easier and safer, and physically do what they say.

This may be beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to post my view.

 

[clapping_tiger]

Oh, and as far as what I would do. I don't think I could shoot anyone, or kill someone. But I guess you never know unless you get put into that situation. And thankfully I never have and I hope I never need to see if I do have it in me.

One of the things one of my friends told me (and he is a police officer). Is you never pull a gun, or any weapon, unless you intend to kill what you are aiming at. There is no aiming for the leg, or the arm. If you need to pull the trigger, it is always to kill.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski


Unfortuneatly, cops often "have to" carry around an extra unregistered gun to plant on someone they shoot by accident, such as a kid brandishing something reflective in a dark corner somewhere and not hailing police demands to drop whatever it was.

Wow, I have no idea what kind of cops you know (sounds like too much T.V.) but cops do not carry around a dirty gun to plant on people.

 

[DAC..florida]

If you are in a scituation that warrants the use of deadly force and you chose to use a firearm you should always aim at the center mass( the part of the body excluding the head, arms and legs.) this will give you a better chance of hitting your target, if you fell as though shooting in the leg is better than obviously you have made a choice not to kill so why even use a gun?
If you draw your gun and fire it, it doesnt matter if you miss hit a non lethal part of the body or kill the bad guy if you were not justified to use deadly force you will either be charged with murder or attempted murder. I'll say this again if you draw your weapon and feel you are justified to use it then always aim for center mass.

In my opinion (because all laws are interpeted differently and case law can sometimes differ from state statues) if you feel that your life or the life of anyone around you is about to be taken and there is no other means than you are justified to use deadly force.

(I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six)
Twelve jururs in murder trial / six carrying your coffen
:asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by clapping_tiger
One of the things one of my friends told me (and he is a police officer). Is you never pull a gun, or any weapon, unless you intend to kill what you are aiming at. There is no aiming for the leg, or the arm. If you need to pull the trigger, it is always to kill.

Your friend is right, Dont pull it unless your intending on using it, I'm not saying that if you pull a weapon you have to use it. once you pull your weapon the scituation could change but dont pull it if have no intention of using it!

One thing I forgot to mention, most LEO and Military personel are taught to shoot to stop the threat, in my opinion that means dont stop shooting until you feel that the bad guy is unable to continue thier attack wether it is one shot or twenty doesnt matter if you are justified to use deadly force, one shot can kill just as good as twenty.
:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by OULobo
Are you sure about this. I think you are allowed to wound if you feel your life is in danger. If a guy 20ft. away has a machete, and sees I have a gun, but still starts to dash towards me, could I not shoot him in the leg and keep him there until the police arrive. Lets say I have a bad knee and can't run away. I just can't belive the law would be designed form me to kill instead of wound if given the option. I know that is a ton of what ifs, but that's kind of what laws are designed to deal with; theoretical situations.

I was a security guard for a number of years and refused to get my gun permit. I felt that carrying a gun, in our comparitively gun free community, would make me a target. But one of the rules that got me most, was the fact that I would not be allowed to draw my weapon, until the bad guy was firing at me. In fact the rule was something to the effect that I would not be allowed to undo the press stud at the top of the holster until I was being fired upon. Unfortunately, I believe that this is why so many of our security guards get shot without returning fire.

THE LAW IS AN ***!!

--Dave

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I was a security guard for a number of years and refused to get my gun permit. I felt that carrying a gun, in our comparitively gun free community, would make me a target. But one of the rules that got me most, was the fact that I would not be allowed to draw my weapon, until the bad guy was firing at me. In fact the rule was something to the effect that I would not be allowed to undo the press stud at the top of the holster until I was being fired upon. Unfortunately, I believe that this is why so many of our security guards get shot without returning fire.

THE LAW IS AN ***!!

--Dave

In florida the law is a little differant but if what you say is true about the law where your from then I must agree with you and pray that the Bad guys that are shooting at you have bad aim!
:asian:

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
... Unfortunately, I believe that this is why so many of our security guards get shot without returning fire.

THE LAW IS AN ***!!

Truer words were never spoken. Defy the law. It may cost a fortune in lawyers, but you'll not only be alive, but know it was the ethical choice.

Don't get me wrong. Even though laws were created for a**holes who couldn't respect other people or figure out common sense for themselves, we shouldn't think we're above them. Then we're no better than those the law was made for.

But law is constantly in (re)creation by human beings, many of them in the class we're talking about who NEED them. I wont just defy any law, but will choose my battles worth fighting. And if it's over my life, or that of protecting someone else (at the moment or later), it's worth fighting.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
Truer words were never spoken. Defy the law. It may cost a fortune in lawyers, but you'll not only be alive, but know it was the ethical choice.

Don't get me wrong. Even though laws were created for a**holes who couldn't respect other people or figure out common sense for themselves, we shouldn't think we're above them. Then we're no better than those the law was made for.

But law is constantly in (re)creation by human beings, many of them in the class we're talking about who NEED them. I wont just defy any law, but will choose my battles worth fighting. And if it's over my life, or that of protecting someone else (at the moment or later), it's worth fighting.

I'm not sure who said it, but they said it best when they said,
I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by 6 , and I personally reckon it's better to be in a witness box than a pine box.

--Dave:asian:

 

[Disco]

My wife is 5'2" 95lbs and I wasn't about to let either one of them get a chance at grabing her. The situation hadn't really hit an extreme emergency level with me until this point. Yes they were trying to seriously hurt me, but I've had bigger guys than them try and fail so I wan't extremely worried. When she entered the equation however, I saw where it could end up. A full throttle punch from a 200 lb guy could ring my bell, but could kill her.

What you experienced is the normal reaction of a person when there is a possitive life threatening situation to a loved one. You don't have time to think, you just react. In your case, because your trained, you reacted with your hands. If you had a weapon at your disposal, I would venture to say that you more than likely would have used it, due to the your mental state at the time.
A police officer has 1.5 seconds, upon pulling the weapon, to make a life or death decision (Justice Dept Stats).

The point being is that anyone on this board, who has trained to defend themselves, will revert under pressure to that training. There will be no formal discussion of morals or ethics. It will be a reaction. Same as for police or military people. That's one of the reasons why we train and it will take over in a threatening situation. Unless, yes there is an unless. Unless the person in question is a coward. Everything that we discuss and debate and pontificate about here is just academics. I hope that nobody else here will be exposed to what you were exposed to. But if they should find themselves in a like situation, I remember what a WWII vet once said, "Self preservation has no morals"..........
:asian: