To Kill or Not to Kill

[rmcrobertson]

Not that this'll help, "techno," but I have worked, and lived, and taught in neighborhoods as bad as anything you've ever seen in this country. And it's odd, but I've never even seriously considered getting a gun I can carry around with me. If I honestly thought I needed one, I would move--on the grounds that if things really are that bad, a gun won't be enough.

I guess reading Robert Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky," early on shaped my ideas about guns.

Liked the point about the protection that the middle class gets, though.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Technopunk
I would also like to interject...

Its very easy for people (and please, I am not speaking about anyone on this board specificaly, I'm thinking about a real life situation in my area) who live in NICE, UPPERCLASS, WELL PATROLLED, RELETIVLY CRIME FREE neighborhoods to scream "FOUL" at those of us who DONT live in that type of area because we cannot AFFORD the exorbant taxes let alone the cost of the houses, who might be carrying a weapon. It doesnt automatically make those who do THUGS, BRAGGARTS or Small PENISED. To want to have an advantage in an area where crime is NOT virtually unknown, and the kids getting off the school buses throw gang signs back at the bus, Street gangs hang out on the corner and the convienice store is robbed fairly regularly shouldnt be viewed as THUGGISH. Of course the solution by those people in the "well off" neighborhood is "MOVE" but thats only easy to say if you have the money and income to live someplace else.

PERSONALLY, *when* I am armed, I dont "Expose" it, Brag about it, or even "Swagger" because i am an armed tough guy. You would probably never know, unless you saw it. Most of the time I HOPE to hell I NEVER have to use a weapon, or even have to fight... But I'll be damned if I wont use it if the situation CALLS for it. And call it stupid if you will, I would rather take my chances with a Judge and Jury of my peers, than unarmed againts 4 or 5 "gangbangers" with bats, blades, and possibly firearms.

Ever face any of the nightmare scenarios you listed above? How about carrying something like pepper spray instead of something macho and sexy like a pistol? If you get pulled over by the police you will have a lot less trouble than a pistol, and the typical range a pistol fight goes at is the same for oc gas.

Of course, you can try to justify what you do all you want. I am sure you talk about saving friends and family from certain death to justify carrying a pistol illeagally. Am I right? Well, do you have an advanced first aid certificate? The chances of you getting into a fight with 4 or 5 gangbangers (assuming you are not being an idiot) is much less than you girlfriend getting some medical problme an advanced first aid course will take care of. But of course, you can't secretly swagger around realizing what kind of power you have over others with a first aid coure.

Yeah, I know you will argue with me about this. I don't expect someone who really feels the way I suspect you do to admit it. But if you really did care about saving yourself and your loved ones you will stop going to martial arts class for a while until you get CPR and other simple medical training.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sheesh, a sensible post with which I...I...agree.

I have nothing to say.

 

[7starmantis]

I agree as well....wow

I have to say that in reality, the odds of one of us actually getting in a situation where we need to kill someone is pretty much nil. All the talk of, "I would kill them and ask questions later" is moronic to me. As a former paramedic who spent years working in Houston, I have seen death many, many times and I have never once been impressed, turned on, or otherwise excited by it. MAny of the people who talk like they would kill everyone if needed, I propose have not witnessed death yet. Its not pretty, and I defy the day that I will ever have to inflict it on anyone, criminal or not.

I pay my taxes so that the police officers have to worry about this issue, not me. My conscience will not hold me taking someones life I don't believe.

7sm

 

[Seig]

I, like several other professionals on this board, carry a firearm as a part of my occupation. Unfortunately, between that and the area I live in, carrying one personally also is necessary. I hope to never need it, but if I do, I have the tools. I pray that I never need them.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Pretty good comment. All too often, you run across some guy trying to compensate for a small penis size by carrying something that the law says he cannot, or acting in a stupid way in terms of legal self defense. These guys, who have never seen action much less a legal case afterwards, always use that comment about being judged by 12 to justify their ego trip.

Um, have seen, action.
Have seen legal case after,
Never carried weapons, even when I was a security officer, two reasons;
1 I have never trained with weapons for SD, have trained against them though.
2 I firmly believe that with the level of training we get here as Security officers, you can get too cocksure of yourself and end up confusing your abilities with your ambitions.

As for ego, no sorry not me. Ego gives you the need to judge others, and that is something I try not to do. I don't know you or your circumstances and therefore I have no idea where you come from or what you live with. Funny that, it goes both ways....

--Dave
I was actually reminded of this by someone else on this board, but so far not on this thread.

 

[arnisador]

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[DeLamar.J]

I feel that if someone attacks me that it is a without a doubt a threat on my life. I dont know if they have a knife in thier pocket, or a gun. What if you floor them and they pull out a gun while your walking away and shoot you in the back.

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by DeLamar.J
I feel that if someone attacks me that it is a without a doubt a threat on my life. I dont know if they have a knife in thier pocket, or a gun. What if you floor them and they pull out a gun while your walking away and shoot you in the back.

Unfortunately, juries tend to disagree. There has to be a clear and present danger, otherwise a person can be in a coma on the ground and you could beat him to death, then claim you were scared he had a gun under his jacket and was faking unconsciousness to get a clear shot. Generally, it has to do with realistic present danger and degree of applied force.

 

[7starmantis]

Still, I don't know how well I would sleep at night after having taken a human life. I guess I'm just a pansy, but I would not want ot be in that situation. Not saying I wouldn't do it if I had to, but not something I would wish on anyone.

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Still, I don't know how well I would sleep at night after having taken a human life. I guess I'm just a pansy, but I would not want ot be in that situation. Not saying I wouldn't do it if I had to, but not something I would wish on anyone.

7sm

The first time, I thought I had actually killed someone, I thought I was going to puke. I straightened their head trying to clear air for breathing. I removed a pen from my pocket and opened his mouth and moved his tongue so he could breath.

After, it was all over and the adrenaline was gone, I did puke from the thought of it. Yet, while it was going on, the only thought going through my mind was I needed to hurt this SOB now, before he hurt me bad. It was instinct and reaction, nothing more nothing less.

Now to say, I am going to take out Person XYZ, then I thnk I could see myself not following through.

:asian:

 

[Martial Tucker]

IMHO, it depends totally on the situation and the actions of the attacker. There is clearly a difference between a drunk in a bar who doesn't like the way you looked at his girlfriend, and someone who invades your home and/or displays a lethal weapon when attacking you. As far as I'm concerned, if I am attacked by an unarmed person, my rights and duty as a martial artist is to use sufficient force to escape without injury. The actions/persistence of my attacker will dictate the level of harm I must inflict. However, if at any point my attacker displays a weapon of lethal potential, in my mind he has crossed a line in terms of indicating an intention to kill me, and my intent immediately shifts to "kill or be killed". If I can find a way to escape, I certainly will choose that route, because survival is my ultimate goal. But if escape is not possible, then I am totally focused on killing my attacker. If I happen to incapacitate him first, then I will certainly back off. In no way could I kill a defenseless person, regardless of what they have done. But, I will say that my actions between the point of the attacker displaying the weapon, and him being incapacitated will be of total intent of killing the attacker. The fact that the conflict became a battle to the death was not my choice. But if my attacker displays lethal weapon/intent, I owe it to myself and my family to treat the situation as if my attacker is completely serious about killing me and is not just trying to scare/bluff me. In these situations, you will not know if your attacker is serious or not until you are possibly mortally wounded. In the case of home or vehicle invasion, I consider either of these situations to be potentially lethal enough to treat them as "death warrants" for the intruders.
I will say this though: I own no firearms in my house. I live in a 3 story house. My family all sleeps on the 3rd floor. Most of our valuables are downstairs. As an avid camper in bear country, I own cans of "bear spray". I also keep a can of "bear spray" in my nightstand drawer. This is basically "pepper spray from hell". It will stop a charging grizzly, and sprays a 5 foot diameter pattern at a range of about 20 feet. If our alarm indicates an intruder downstairs in our home at night, I will basically cede any valuables downstairs to the intruders. That is why I have insurance. HOWEVER...if they decide to visit the 3rd floor, they are in for a nasty surprise. I will be waiting for them on the 3rd floor landing, packing "heat" they've never dreamed of. If it's all a mistake and it's my son coming home from college unexpectedly, then it's a bad night, but no real harm done. In summary, I don't want to hurt anyone any more than is necessary, but if I feel my life is legitimately threatened, then I will err on the side of aggressiveness, because in those cases, if you're wrong YOU are dead. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[muaythaifreak]

"In no way could I kill a defenseless person, regardless of what they have done."

This is an honorable thing to say, however, I can think of a couple good reasons to kill a defenseless person based upon what they had done to bring me to the point of contemplating their death to begin with. Certain acts of aggression, violence, or abuse to members of my family or to myself could I think drive me to kill someone. Just being honest!

 

[Adept]

Having completed several psych evaluations, both military and civilian, I've been told I exhibit several sociopathic tendencies. I often run myself through mental simulations, and without actual experience in the matter I feel confident in saying I would have no trouble killing someone if I felt it was required.

 

[DeLamar.J]

If someone attacks me on the street, I feel it is a threat on my life. I think that you should have the right to kill that person while defending yourself. But, being the country I live in, I cant do that ounless I want to spend the rest of my life behind bars, so unfortunatly muggers get to live to do it another day to another innocent person. If the law would permit me, I would have no problem checking someone out early for trying to jump me, or hurt one of my loved ones. But it does, and I am not above the law.

 

[TonyM.]

Unless you are a sociopath, if you kill someone for any reason you will think about it every day of your life.

 

[OUMoose]

Unless you are a sociopath, if you kill someone for any reason you will think about it every day of your life.

That's questionable. Circumstance would dictate my dwelling on the problem. If I killed someone in a car crash, probably. If there was no other way to escape the situation safely, I would expire someone without hesitation. Would I feel bad about it? No. They did not leave me an option. Granted, as others have said, if in the process, the person was incapacitated, or otherwise unable to continue (arm torn off, massive bleeding causing a blackout), I would wait for the police to arrive and that would be that.

 

[Adept]

That's questionable. Circumstance would dictate my dwelling on the problem. If I killed someone in a car crash, probably. If there was no other way to escape the situation safely, I would expire someone without hesitation. Would I feel bad about it? No. They did not leave me an option.

To be so young and naive...

Even if you feel fully justified, only the mentally imbalanced can kill without dwelling on it for the rest of their lives. Those with the right mental mindset can live with it, some can do it without remorse. But those people are very few and far between, and most of them are in the military or the police.

Beware, dojo darlings and the keyboard warriors.

 

[OUMoose]

To be so young and naive...

Even if you feel fully justified, only the mentally imbalanced can kill without dwelling on it for the rest of their lives. Those with the right mental mindset can live with it, some can do it without remorse. But those people are very few and far between, and most of them are in the military or the police.

Beware, dojo darlings and the keyboard warriors.

Could you please quote the psychology studies that brought you to this assumption?

 

[INDYFIGHTER]

Ok, I've been following this thread and I think I'm ready to put in my two cents. I have a permit to carry a gun and I do. When I turned eighteen I could have ran out and got my permit and started carrying a few weeks later, I already had a gun to carry. By choice I didn't get my permit until I was 24 years old. By that time I'd been bar hopping for a few years and was getting tired of it. I had friends living in bad parts of town. I also hadn't been in a street fight for about three years and I had talked my way out of many situations in that time. I realized I had reached a point where I was mature enough to carry the weapon. I don't look for trouble like I once did, I walk away from it.

So now that I'm a responsible gun toteing citizen, I ask myself, when would I pull my gun? If a guy on the street brandishes a knife, do I drop him? Hell no, I try to walk away, keeping my eyes on him and creating more distance so I can have a chance if he advances. Guy pulls a gun on me, do I draw? Not a chance! If I'm close enough to disarm that would be my first option. If not total cooperation would be my next. Now, here's the one I see the most likely. Mutilple attackers. I don't know the stats but I know this is one of the most common attacks. No weapons, just three or more guys trying to get me cornered. I hate to say it but this is the only situation I can imagine I would pull my weapon without being completely intent on killing someone. I would try like hell to use it to get my *** outta there.

My father traveled the World in his youth in the Navy and he told me when I was a boy that if someone really wants to kill you with a knife or a gun, you'll never get a chance to see the weapon. If someone is waving a gun or knife in your face it probably means they don't really want to use it.

I can't say I wouldn't feel any remorse for killing someone in self-defense. However if he was intent on ending my life and I was forced to end his and now I'm still living... I can't imagine I'd lose too much sleep over it. Of coarse it just all depends on the situation and every situation is different.

To reply about the situation stated in the first post. With to guys in my car without weapons I'm going to fight to the end. My gun stays in my center console while I drive so I wouldn't have probably gone for it if I had thought I might lose it. It's tough to say how that went down but I can see me flooring the accelerator with a couple of jack ***** hanging out of my car.