...time to reconsider some techniques?

[Blindside]

I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.

James

While I agree with all your points, I think it is fair to say that most "knife defense" that is presented in many martial arts fail to address these types of "prison shank" attacks, including kenpo.

 

[WingChunIan]

I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.

James

You make some fair points James but I think the important thing to note is the savagery of the attacks and the fact that the knife hand retracts quickly in each case. As pointed out in the video posted by mookjong techniques that work great against a known attack with no intent to withdraw and strike again normally fail horribly when confronted with this type of attack.

 

[MJS]

I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.

James

While I agree with all your points, I think it is fair to say that most "knife defense" that is presented in many martial arts fail to address these types of "prison shank" attacks, including kenpo.

Blideside is correct IMHO. All my years in Kenpo and I've never saw the pumping style attack. All of my knife work dealing with that, has come from my Arnis instructor, who's worked in Corrections for the past 20yrs. But, IMO, I also think that its foolish to think that when faced with a knife, you'll always be attacked one way. In prison...sure, the assassination type shankings is most likely what we'll see. Large groups of inamtes in the yard, passing in the halls, etc, is where you'll see the hit and run type attacks. But, OTOH, someone mugging you is most likely using that knife for intimidation. This isn't to say that they wont use it, of course they would. But the blade will already be out.

 

[OKenpo942]

While I agree with all your points, I think it is fair to say that most "knife defense" that is presented in many martial arts fail to address these types of "prison shank" attacks, including kenpo.

I agree, Blindside. That is my whole point. While training in knife defense is always better than not training, I think it is a very sketchy situation if you are aware that a knife is present. Even worse if you are unaware.

How is it possible to defend against a "shanking"? I think it is a losing proposition either way. I think there are things that can be done to help your chances, obviously, but, yes, I fear the knife. The defenses that can help are not necessarily "knife" defenses. I still think you are getting cut either way.

James

 

[OKenpo942]

You make some fair points James but I think the important thing to note is the savagery of the attacks and the fact that the knife hand retracts quickly in each case. As pointed out in the video posted by mookjong techniques that work great against a known attack with no intent to withdraw and strike again normally fail horribly when confronted with this type of attack.

I completely agree. Again, without fear of being redundant, I dread a blade in the hands of a thug bearing ill will towards me. I know I will fail in regards to sharing my blood with the world, but will hopefully be successful in returning home to my den.

Hopefully at some point you can either isolate and immobilize the knife wielding arm, or better yet, run faster than he can.

James

James

 

[OKenpo942]

Blideside is correct IMHO. All my years in Kenpo and I've never saw the pumping style attack. All of my knife work dealing with that, has come from my Arnis instructor, who's worked in Corrections for the past 20yrs. But, IMO, I also think that its foolish to think that when faced with a knife, you'll always be attacked one way. In prison...sure, the assassination type shankings is most likely what we'll see. Large groups of inamtes in the yard, passing in the halls, etc, is where you'll see the hit and run type attacks. But, OTOH, someone mugging you is most likely using that knife for intimidation. This isn't to say that they wont use it, of course they would. But the blade will already be out.

Yessir! I'm glad you said that. It is foolish to train for the same attack all the time. You have to be diverse in your training. Especially with knife defense. This goes back to my argument though. If you are training knife defense, you know that your opponent has a knife. Much easier to have success if you know the knife is there in the first place. This is why, though I don't agree with it, so many are scrapping the IP techniques and only training functional. Don't get me wrong here. I love functional training. I do feel, though, that not training the IP or original techniques is neglecting the foundation that teaches the principles held within the techniques.

Anyway, this is not a Kenpo thread, so I will get back on topic. IMO many of the video clips shown shown in the original post look to be more of the "shanking" type or a completely stealth attack. I just don't think that these vids show any failure of any particular techniques because I don't think it is possible to defend against an attack that you can't see. Unless, of course, you wear your knights armor everywhere you go. How can you possibly employ a technique that is intended for a certain attack if you don't ever see the attack coming. Yes, I am being redundant again. I just don't see how you can question whether or not you need to rethink knife defense techniques based on these vids.

Reminds me of the old Pink Panther movies where they randomly attack one another to keep them on their toes and alert. Hmmm, maybe they were onto something. Do I see a new type of training on the horizon? Could be fun.

James

 

[WingChunIan]

Yessir! I'm glad you said that. It is foolish to train for the same attack all the time. You have to be diverse in your training. Especially with knife defense. This goes back to my argument though. If you are training knife defense, you know that your opponent has a knife. Much easier to have success if you know the knife is there in the first place. This is why, though I don't agree with it, so many are scrapping the IP techniques and only training functional. Don't get me wrong here. I love functional training. I do feel, though, that not training the IP or original techniques is neglecting the foundation that teaches the principles held within the techniques.

Anyway, this is not a Kenpo thread, so I will get back on topic. IMO many of the video clips shown shown in the original post look to be more of the "shanking" type or a completely stealth attack. I just don't think that these vids show any failure of any particular techniques because I don't think it is possible to defend against an attack that you can't see. Unless, of course, you wear your knights armor everywhere you go. How can you possibly employ a technique that is intended for a certain attack if you don't ever see the attack coming. Yes, I am being redundant again. I just don't see how you can question whether or not you need to rethink knife defense techniques based on these vids.

Reminds me of the old Pink Panther movies where they randomly attack one another to keep them on their toes and alert. Hmmm, maybe they were onto something. Do I see a new type of training on the horizon? Could be fun.

James

Sorry to disagree but in most of the clips the victim clearly sees the attack they just don't recognise it as a knife attack. The attacks are sudden and savage which is how most folks will use a blade and under these circumstances most of the tripe that is taught as knife defence will fail.

 

[OKenpo942]

Sorry to disagree but in most of the clips the victim clearly sees the attack they just don't recognise it as a knife attack. The attacks are sudden and savage which is how most folks will use a blade and under these circumstances most of the tripe that is taught as knife defence will fail.

You don't have to be sorry to disagree. We just have differing perspectives. Okay, let's say they do see the knife... Who said that these folks in the videos are martial artists at all. Does the regular Joe on the street know "knife defenses" and how to use them. I don't think that most people do. So, again, how can we question what techniques need to be reconsidered based on these videos? We can't just assume that these victims are martial artists. The OP states,"...time to reconsider some techniques?" Again I ask... What techniques?

 

[Cyriacus]

You don't have to be sorry to disagree. We just have differing perspectives. Okay, let's say they do see the knife... Who said that these folks in the videos are martial artists at all. Does the regular Joe on the street know "knife defenses" and how to use them. I don't think that most people do. So, again, how can we question what techniques need to be reconsidered based on these videos? We can't just assume that these victims are martial artists. The OP states,"...time to reconsider some techniques?" Again I ask... What techniques?

Youre both saying the same thing in different ways - Read His as being "He clearly isnt a Martial Artist, and no 'Technique' is in sight or use."

 

[WingChunIan]

Fair enough, but I the vids are still a good barometer of effectiveness. Most attacks happen rapidly and turn into a frenzy of blows whether they are punches and kicks or knives, bottles, bricks, bars or any other weapon. Often there isn't time to decide if the attack is armed or not and you only have a split second to respond. Once the initial window is lost it becomes increasingly difficult to recover due to the frenzy of the attack and the damage being sustained. I'm probably over reacting slightly but this is one of my hobby horses as I've seen so much crap being taught by traditional arts and military based systems alike that profess to handle knife attack (often involving complex control and disarming manouvers) but in reality would simply get students killed.

 

[Cyriacus]

Fair enough, but I the vids are still a good barometer of effectiveness. Most attacks happen rapidly and turn into a frenzy of blows whether they are punches and kicks or knives, bottles, bricks, bars or any other weapon. Often there isn't time to decide if the attack is armed or not and you only have a split second to respond. Once the initial window is lost it becomes increasingly difficult to recover due to the frenzy of the attack and the damage being sustained. I'm probably over reacting slightly but this is one of my hobby horses as I've seen so much crap being taught by traditional arts and military based systems alike that profess to handle knife attack (often involving complex control and disarming manouvers) but in reality would simply get students killed.

That said, theres often a gap between actual Military Systems, and 'Military' Systems that just use the name either due to their origins, or their basis; Or Theyre just taught TO the Military, and thereby claim to be specialised to it. Often 'actual' Military Systems are those that arent found outside of the Military.

Anyone remember the old LINE System?

 

[Grenadier]

Attention all users:

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-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator

 

[Haakon]

A possible counter would be to grab the forward arm and pull across your body(left hand grabbing left hand), essentially an arm drag. With sufficient pull and some footwork, you would find yourself behind an off balanced BG, with options for rear chokes, kicking out back of knee, takedowns, etc. But again, this would have to be a trained reaction, and the videos dont show trained defenders.

That's a strategy I've considered and practiced with my son - of course what works on a 10 year old has a great chance of not working on an adult, I haven't tried it against a large determined partner yet. My thought was if the attacker is keeping the knife hand to the rear and stabbing that if I could get control of the lead hand I could get them in a position where they couldn't reach me with the knife.

Have you tried that in practice yet?

 

[mook jong man]

That's a strategy I've considered and practiced with my son - of course what works on a 10 year old has a great chance of not working on an adult, I haven't tried it against a large determined partner yet. My thought was if the attacker is keeping the knife hand to the rear and stabbing that if I could get control of the lead hand I could get them in a position where they couldn't reach me with the knife.

Have you tried that in practice yet?

Did a bit of experimentation with this a few weeks ago with one of my students and got some mixed results.

Now to be fair I am not a judo man or grappler , I am a Wing Chun man.
What we found is that the arm drag works great when his lead hand is already in contact with you , say for example on your chest , you can go pretty quickly from blocking the knife thrust straight into the arm drag and get around to his back , and what we did then was get a a hold of the arm and shoulder and start laying in repeated knee strikes to the back of his hamstrings.

When we tried it without the lead arm in contact range we found that while you were in the process of trying to capture the arm for the arm drag you would be gutted , it just took too long to get it on and in the mean time you would be getting stabbed.

Still keeping with the theory of trying to get around to his back , we used a different technique.
What we used was the Wing Chun pak sau , essentially a sideways slapping parry to the wrist of his lead hand.
It had the effect of knocking his arm sideways and putting his body in an off balanced position and gave us enough of a gap to step around at a 45 degree angle and get around to his back.

We practiced it with my back against the wall so I could not use my posture to get my hips back to avoid the knife thrusts , if his lead hand is coming forward almost at the same time as the knife thrusts commence , then I had to use three movements simultaneously.

I had to jam/deflect his knife thrust at the inside of his wrist with one arm , while I side parry his lead arm with the other .
At the same time I also did a low heel kick to his knee/ shin.

The low heel kick served two purposes , it stopped him from advancing and getting greater penetration with the knife hand , it also serves as a distraction , hopefully stunning him long enough for the time I need to step around and get to his back.

So to summarise , if it's close range and the attackers lead hand is already on me then I will use a two handed arm drag due to it's powerful displacement effect on the attackers body.
We used a two handed arm drag because in some instances he had a good hold of my shirt and the two handed arm drag broke the grip quite nicely.

If the attacker is about to close in with the lead hand then I will use the Pak Sau due to it's speed and economy of motion and and because I will need the other hand to posssibly deflect the knife .

As I said I am no Judo or grappling guy so your results might vary , but as a Wing Chun guy I am no stranger when it comes to manipulating peoples arms.
This is just what worked for us , the attacker was very enthusiastic and came in hard and stabbed like a Singer sewing machine.

 

[grumpywolfman]

I didn't even have to press the play button - I recognized this clip - it's brutal; it illustrates the harsh reality of self defense. A response needs to be immediate, and with the same level of the attacker's emotional intensity without mercy. IMO, a defender if he or she even has the time to respond, may be limited to gross body movements due to the sheer shock of the surprise of this horrific attack. For me, I hope that my response would be: as soon as I would see the knife revealed and advanced at me (assuming that I could not control the distance), to meet the attack with (nonstop as fast as I possibly can) alternating front kicks one leg after the other with everything I got to drive that M.Fer. backwards to stop his momentum. When I can start to accept what is happening to me after this intial reaction, to possibly throw in some kicks or sweeps to the legs, but my ultimate goal would be to kill him at the throat as quickly as possible. IMO, it would be very difficult (FOR ME) to try and grab the knife.

 

[Gnarlie]

I didn't even have to press the play button - I recognized this clip - it's brutal; it illustrates the harsh reality of self defense. A response needs to be immediate, and with the same level of the attacker's emotional intensity without mercy. IMO, a defender if he or she even has the time to respond, may be limited to gross body movements due to the sheer shock of the surprise of this horrific attack. For me, I hope that my response would be: as soon as I would see the knife revealed and advanced at me (assuming that I could not control the distance), to meet the attack with (nonstop as fast as I possibly can) alternating front kicks one leg after the other with everything I got to drive that M.Fer. backwards to stop his momentum. When I can start to accept what is happening to me after this intial reaction, to possibly throw in some kicks or sweeps to the legs, but my ultimate goal would be to kill him at the throat as quickly as possible. IMO, it would be very difficult (FOR ME) to try and grab the knife.

I think kicking could be a non-starter against this, for 2 reasons:

Firstly, you'd need to see it coming and part of the horror of these attacks is the surprise.

Secondly, a major feature of this type if attack is unbalancing and controlling the victim with the non-stabbing arm. Not the best circumstances to be standing on one leg for any amount of time.

I'd be more inclined to try to broadly impede the stabbing motion with one arm whilst trying to rotate an unbalance the attacker usinf his forward momentum. This will definitely mean getting stabbed though. I don't really know. It's really, really tough. Basically, I'd probably be killed or at least seriously injured.

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[grumpywolfman]

IMO if there are no options left other than to go hand to hand with an assailant who is armed with a knife, there will be two schools of thought; to disarm first, or to immediately attack - may none of us ever have to make that decision.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think kicking could be a non-starter against this, for 2 reasons:

Firstly, you'd need to see it coming and part of the horror of these attacks is the surprise.

Secondly, a major feature of this type if attack is unbalancing and controlling the victim with the non-stabbing arm. Not the best circumstances to be standing on one leg for any amount of time.

I'd be more inclined to try to broadly impede the stabbing motion with one arm whilst trying to rotate an unbalance the attacker usinf his forward momentum. This will definitely mean getting stabbed though. I don't really know. It's really, really tough. Basically, I'd probably be killed or at least seriously injured.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

You kind of need to see if coming to do the whole unbalancing-the-attacker thing.

 

[shinbushi]

Did a bit of experimentation with this a few weeks ago with one of my students and got some mixed results.

Now to be fair I am not a judo man or grappler , I am a Wing Chun man.
What we found is that the arm drag works great when his lead hand is already in contact with you

Several good knife defensive systems like Red Zone and Stab use the arm drag. I don't know if DLO does

 

[Gnarlie]

You kind of need to see if coming to do the whole unbalancing-the-attacker thing.

Exactly. Hence I would likely be stabbed or killed. My point was that by the time one realised this was happening we would likely already be too close for kicking.

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