Acting like a mad fool

[Zero]

Ok, so this last post I looked at on here "Pre-attack indicators" got me thinking about things and a general quesiton I had for others.

Do we always need to disengage the ego and move around others and avoid violence or confrontations? Sometimes it is hard being like a zen monk all the time when there are so many douchebags out there, and that includes punks as well as just arrogant insular sods. Generaly when I am walking down a busy street I weave among people rather than holding a line, being a relatively big guy from doing a lot of weights alongside my MA training when I do hold the line most get outta my way anyhow but I am not that kind of guy in any event.

But what grates me at times is when you either have some hood who deliberately plows his way throw people, men/women alike, or a bunch of arrogant suits who just think they own the footpath/world. At times I will deliberatly hold the line and stiffen the shoulder into these types rather than evasion and flowing around them. This generaly sends them scattered and startled, few want to make a real issue but if they do at that stage I am prepared to go where it goes.

Example, a biggish (but nothing impressive) surly chap obviously with an ego problem was cutting down the middle of the street a few weeks back, had a fierce look on his face, expecting everyone to move or bumping them. I generally try to stay aware of surrroundings so I saw this coming well in advance. This day (and I know it is never wise to assess an unknown as who knows what they are capable of) I thought forget it and assessed the guy as on his own and someone I could give a stomping to if required. So I kept going casually and then at the last sec firmed up and cliipped the guy. He was startled and pissed, took about two seconds to compute and then he stopped in his tracks by which time he was about 20 paces from me (I had kept walking also but with an eye on him) and he said, "what the ---".

Ok so don't preach to me on this one about SD and legal defences etc, I just took a view and couldn't be bothered. So I said, "hey, you gotta problem come make something of it". So he starts coming over to me, so I slip my bag to the ground and assume a ready but neutral stance, ie squared nicely but hands down. This gives him pause from thought as he stops just out of range. Basically I run the whole escalte to de-escalte routine, not good I know. He starts blabbing away, I say "no, you walked into me", he starts threatening violence, I say "if you make a move, I will defend myself", he says, "I will defend myself also", I say "why, I am not attacking you, what do you need to defend?"
Then I talk him down and he ends up trying to be pals (which I don't buy) and to which I don't oblige and he heads off.
I watch him go then take another longer route to where I was going just to make sure not followed etc.

Now hey, I would have actually beaten the guy or subdued him if needed to and who knows where that would have lead. But is the above reaction totally crazy, do we always have to just move over or let things slide, particularly where from a legitimate defence position if things were to escalate you may be covered by legal defences.

As said, generally I don't indulge in the above but if someone is picking on someone or beating them for no cause or maybe just being a hood/no-good, if we assess the risks can't we become involved, if we choose?

 

[Cyriacus]

Ok, so this last post I looked at on here "Pre-attack indicators" got me thinking about things and a general quesiton I had for others.

Righteo

Do we always need to disengage the ego and move around others and avoid violence or confrontations?

Nope. If You want to get into a Fight, thats Your call. For better or worse.

Sometimes it is hard being like a zen monk all the time when there are so many douchebags out there, and that includes punks as well as just arrogant insular sods. Generaly when I am walking down a busy street I weave among people rather than holding a line, being a relatively big guy from doing a lot of weights alongside my MA training when I do hold the line most get outta my way anyhow but I am not that kind of guy in any event.

And if You werent that kind of Guy, Youd probably be more likely to follow that line. Exercise and MA Training happens to give People an outlet of some variety for Hostility they wouldnt otherwise have.

But what grates me at times is when you either have some hood who deliberately plows his way throw people, men/women alike, or a bunch of arrogant suits who just think they own the footpath/world. At times I will deliberatly hold the line and stiffen the shoulder into these types rather than evasion and flowing around them. This generaly sends them scattered and startled, few want to make a real issue but if they do at that stage I am prepared to go where it goes.

Aha - And thats Your decision to make. Its better than most possible reasons out there to be putting Yourself in that position.

Example, a biggish (but nothing impressive) surly chap obviously with an ego problem was cutting down the middle of the street a few weeks back, had a fierce look on his face, expecting everyone to move or bumping them. I generally try to stay aware of surrroundings so I saw this coming well in advance. This day (and I know it is never wise to assess an unknown as who knows what they are capable of) I thought forget it and assessed the guy as on his own and someone I could give a stomping to if required. So I kept going casually and then at the last sec firmed up and cliipped the guy. He was startled and pissed, took about two seconds to compute and then he stopped in his tracks by which time he was about 20 paces from me (I had kept walking also but with an eye on him) and he said, "what the ---".

Aha - And such is His Confidence. Its similar to Yours, albeit being used differently.

Ok so don't preach to me on this one about SD and legal defences etc, I just took a view and couldn't be bothered. So I said, "hey, you gotta problem come make something of it". So he starts coming over to me, so I slip my bag to the ground and assume a ready but neutral stance, ie squared nicely but hands down. This gives him pause from thought as he stops just out of range. Basically I run the whole escalte to de-escalte routine, not good I know. He starts blabbing away, I say "no, you walked into me", he starts threatening violence, I say "if you make a move, I will defend myself", he says, "I will defend myself also", I say "why, I am not attacking you, what do you need to defend?"
Then I talk him down and he ends up trying to be pals (which I don't buy) and to which I don't oblige and he heads off.
I watch him go then take another longer route to where I was going just to make sure not followed etc.

Nothing wrong with that. Two people get into an arguement over bumping into someone with the possibility of a physical altercation, dampened and ended by the power of confusion. And if it did turn Violent, even from a Legal Standpoint as long as there werent any serious Injuries it wouldnt be too bad. For that matter, how many Witnesses were there who could attest that it started off with two people moving in a straight line, followed by Him turning at You and initiating contact? I dont see the problem here from a Personal or Legal standpoint.

Now hey, I would have actually beaten the guy or subdued him if needed to and who knows where that would have lead. But is the above reaction totally crazy, do we always have to just move over or let things slide, particularly where from a legitimate defence position if things were to escalate you may be covered by legal defences.

Thats Your choice. The majority of Physical Altercations, to My Knowledge, dont exactly get sledgehammered in the face by Legal Outcomes. The only slightly crazy thing is assuming Youd have won just like that.

As said, generally I don't indulge in the above but if someone is picking on someone or beating them for no cause or maybe just being a hood/no-good, if we assess the risks can't we become involved, if we choose?

Personal Choice. If You want to defend someone, You can. Or You can choose not to. Theres no right or wrong answer. You can go out taunting People if You want. Youll get a bad, bad rep for it, and probably end up getting in trouble, but it isnt exactly condemnable.

PS: Im refraining from stating My Personal View on this. I choose to view this objectively for the sake of the Discussion. My Opinion wouldnt add much. In a narrow, short phrase: Itd depend on the situation among other things, but Personally I wouldnt deliberately initiate contact. If They initiate contact however, it would, as I said, depend on the situation among other things.

Just My Contribution.

 

[Jenna]

At times I will deliberatly hold the line and stiffen the shoulder into these types rather than evasion and flowing around them. This generaly sends them scattered and startled, few want to make a real issue but if they do at that stage I am prepared to go where it goes.

I understand that you do not wish to appear as weak or vulnerable, however, do you not think that this approach to the mundanities of going about your daily business is in any way unnecessarily strong or aggressive? I mean, the above seems to be aggression over having a better position on a pavement?? Has your martial arts training given you no confidence that you no longer need to show yourself as the big man on teh street? Does belief in your own fighting and defensive abilities not enable you to just let it all go. You are not weak for this, you are simply avoiding conflict. I think this martial art is training to end altercation if it seeks you out and but more importantly to have a self-confidence which avoids the need for conflict in the first place. If you are not offended, I think you are equally -if not more- culpable for any situation arising from the above. However, I am hapy to acknowledge that something like that is a guy thing of which I can sometimes claim no comprehension. I do wish you well though.

 

[Zero]

Oh I would be the first to accept this is not ideal behaviour and should be well below someone who has trained in and competed in the martial arts for something more than twenty years and both nationally and internationally.

I have no issue in belief in myself or my abilities either in the ring or on the pavement, that said, having been dealt severe beatings at times in the ring and taken serious injuries at times and having had more than a few street fights over the years and a couple of genuine SD scenarios, including assisting others and imoblising muggers, I am not delussional either of my own prowess and do not underestimate others and the harm they can inflict (maybe it is hard to explain but not underestimating others can also be coupled with a firm sense of those you believe you may well be able to "take", be it in the ring or in the street).

It has nothing to do with what I want to appear like, I learned many years ago not to care about appearances. It is an inner thing that sometimes rears up about what is genuinely right and wrong or perhaps more an umbrage at how others are acting. I couldn't care less who thought I was weak be it in this forum or on the street, it is more, "why always move over when some people genuinely do not seem concerned for others, such as even for women or kids even?"

Again, I seldom even partake in such activity, but now and again such things "grate". I guess it is best just to avoid but sometimes I ask, is that really so? I am far from a kid, unfortunately!, and should not need to ask others on this but the sensei who I respected most for his fighting ability and philisophical perpsective unfortunately has pased away and this would have been something I would have liked to chew the cud with.

Maybe this is just a "guy" thing but again I genuinely think it is not so much the ego, look someone can cuss me out or even worse before I take action in most cases, and I am not some bully prowling the pavements looking for trouble.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think you have some growing up to do. Nothing to do with martial arts or self-defense.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The situation as you describe it shows TWO people with ego problems.

Edit: Actually, let me rephrase that. My original comment makes the quite possibly erroneous assumption that your assessment of the other mans ego is correct.

The situation as you describe it show that YOU have a problem. I hope you can learn to deal with it.

 

[K-man]

I really can't identify with your actions. It seems to me in the scenario you outlined that you have deliberately sought conflict. That is not a 'man' thing at all. It is something you might expect from the school yard bully.

I teach self defence as opposed to sport. I can't remember whether this has been said here before but in the process of an attacker electing to attack you, he has summed up the situation and decided in his own mind that he can defeat you. That is exactly what you said you did. You deliberately set out to provoke this person, set up a conflict and if necessary engage in a fight on the street. So, although you said don't preach on SD, it wasn't the most sensible action to take.

To answer your questions, and I'm sure you already know the answers:
Yes, I believe your actions were crazy.
And, yes, if someone is picking on someone, or beating them for no cause, you could choose to become involved, but that scenario is far from the situation you described.

I'm sorry that your Sensei has passed away, but if he were still around I'm sure he may have said "Chill out Grasshoper".

 

[MJS]

Ok, so this last post I looked at on here "Pre-attack indicators" got me thinking about things and a general quesiton I had for others.

Do we always need to disengage the ego and move around others and avoid violence or confrontations? Sometimes it is hard being like a zen monk all the time when there are so many douchebags out there, and that includes punks as well as just arrogant insular sods. Generaly when I am walking down a busy street I weave among people rather than holding a line, being a relatively big guy from doing a lot of weights alongside my MA training when I do hold the line most get outta my way anyhow but I am not that kind of guy in any event.

But what grates me at times is when you either have some hood who deliberately plows his way throw people, men/women alike, or a bunch of arrogant suits who just think they own the footpath/world. At times I will deliberatly hold the line and stiffen the shoulder into these types rather than evasion and flowing around them. This generaly sends them scattered and startled, few want to make a real issue but if they do at that stage I am prepared to go where it goes.

Example, a biggish (but nothing impressive) surly chap obviously with an ego problem was cutting down the middle of the street a few weeks back, had a fierce look on his face, expecting everyone to move or bumping them. I generally try to stay aware of surrroundings so I saw this coming well in advance. This day (and I know it is never wise to assess an unknown as who knows what they are capable of) I thought forget it and assessed the guy as on his own and someone I could give a stomping to if required. So I kept going casually and then at the last sec firmed up and cliipped the guy. He was startled and pissed, took about two seconds to compute and then he stopped in his tracks by which time he was about 20 paces from me (I had kept walking also but with an eye on him) and he said, "what the ---".

Ok so don't preach to me on this one about SD and legal defences etc, I just took a view and couldn't be bothered. So I said, "hey, you gotta problem come make something of it". So he starts coming over to me, so I slip my bag to the ground and assume a ready but neutral stance, ie squared nicely but hands down. This gives him pause from thought as he stops just out of range. Basically I run the whole escalte to de-escalte routine, not good I know. He starts blabbing away, I say "no, you walked into me", he starts threatening violence, I say "if you make a move, I will defend myself", he says, "I will defend myself also", I say "why, I am not attacking you, what do you need to defend?"
Then I talk him down and he ends up trying to be pals (which I don't buy) and to which I don't oblige and he heads off.
I watch him go then take another longer route to where I was going just to make sure not followed etc.

Now hey, I would have actually beaten the guy or subdued him if needed to and who knows where that would have lead. But is the above reaction totally crazy, do we always have to just move over or let things slide, particularly where from a legitimate defence position if things were to escalate you may be covered by legal defences.

Well, to each his own. In the end, its you that'll have to answer for your actions. I'm not a legal expert, however, given the fact that we live in a sue happy world, and many times, the 'system' likes to make the badguy out to be the victim, I'd certainly make sure that your actions are justified, otherwise, you could find yourself in a heap of trouble.

To be honest, by saying what you did, ie: "You got a problem?" IMO, you're no better than the guy who initially bumped into you. Its very possible that the bump could've been an accident, and now you are the one sounding like an *** because of what you said. Again, to each his own.

As said, generally I don't indulge in the above but if someone is picking on someone or beating them for no cause or maybe just being a hood/no-good, if we assess the risks can't we become involved, if we choose?

Again, to each his own. Many times, when someone gets involved, they find themselves suddenly the victim. Ex: you see a man and woman fighting. Guy is beating the hell out of her. You decide to play hero and come to her aid. Despite her getting her *** kicked, she now does a 180, and forgives her man, and comes to his aid. Now, you have 2 people to deal with. Personally, if you want to get involved, call the cops and be a good witness.

Again, to each his own. Like I said, anyone is free to do whatever they want, but IMO, it'd be a damn good idea to assess the situation before doing anything.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I never had the luxury of an ego worth defending.

I'm meek because the alternative is to be assertive which always escalates because everyone thinks they're right. I don't duel, I fight for my life. I've won some, I've lost some but I always associate fighting with the helpless feeling of having the back of my head repeatedly smashed against the pavement.

Maybe an insult can be worth one on the cobbles but I don't have that mid-ground. You either turned it into a life and death situation or I can brush it off.

 

[Buka]

Mark Twain said, "When you pick up a cat by the tail, you learn a lesson you can learn in no other way."

Might be best not to reach for the cat.

 

[Zero]

Thanks for those comments, like I said those actions were not the norm for me but I guess the consensus to date shows my perspective is slightly out of wack and maybe I still have ego aspects in some situations I need to work on and, as said, basically chill out.

K-Man, given this other guy had plowed into a few others before me I had not seen myself as the bully at all but maybe by deliberately intiating or engaging my actions were no better than that...

Surprising but I guess refreshing anwers as I thought maybe others feel the same frustrations at times and engage on those frustrations but I understand it is far better and wiser not too. It's nice to have a different perspective.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thanks for those comments, like I said those actions were not the norm for me but I guess the consensus to date shows my perspective is slightly out of wack and maybe I still have ego aspects in some situations I need to work on and, as said, basically chill out.

K-Man, given this other guy had plowed into a few others before me I had not seen myself as the bully at all but maybe by deliberately intiating or engaging my actions were no better than that...

Surprising but I guess refreshing anwers as I thought maybe others feel the same frustrations at times and engage on those frustrations but I understand it is far better and wiser not too. It's nice to have a different perspective.

Thank you for the response. That was mature of you.

I did not expound on the rightness or wrongness of your actions or thoughts, but simply stated that IMHO, you have some growing up to do. I base this on my reflections of my interactions with my father. I spoke as you speak once, he counseled me, and I ignored him, because I rejected his advice as worthless. I have since found that not only was he right, but that most young people reject the advice of older people. I'm not sure anything can be done about that.

I am far from meek, and I'm not that much into turning the other cheek. But I am peaceable; if for no other reason than it conserves my energy for the battles that matter.

A lesson learned over time...slowly, gradually, and painfully.

A hard man can beat all comers in a fight.

A good man pays his rent on time, provides for his family, can protect them if he must. A wise man knows when that time is and when it is not.

I'd rather be good than hard. I strive to achieve wisdom. A hard man can be beaten by a loser with a gun. And a dead man provides for no one; his family suffers forever for his pride. A wise man may be termed a coward down at the local pub, but his pubmates won't raise his family when the hard man is dead.

So what's really important? Your pride or your destiny?

 

[WC_lun]

Bill's reply was much the same as my thoughts. Of course douche bags annoy me. Who doesn't get annoyed by those treat others badly. However, what is it worth for me to teach him manners? Are they worth me becomming a jerk too? Are they worth possibly risking my health, my family, or freedom, just to teach them better? comes under the heading of "Not Worth It."

Perhaps if they were beating someone, I would interfere. I must live with my concious. You gotta pick your fights.