The value of kata and basics.

[Matt Stone]

Three years is nothing

No, it is something. It is three years, 1095 days, 26280 hours, all of which are opportunities for someone to get their head kicked in... If it takes that long to learn how to use it, it isn't worth the effort for a beginner who needs to defend himself now.

granted I have not been in the Martial Arts for very long but I have been in for 10 years, and there are many people out there that have been doing it 20,30,40.... so your three years are nothing compaired to what others have done.

Well, when you and I have disagreed previously, the fact that I have nearly twice as much time in training as you didn't seem to amount to much at all... So which is it? Those with more time know more, or not? Just trying to understand your logic...

My point with that isn't to bait you, but to point out that Hedge's 3 years is still a significant investment. Plenty of time for him to form a decent opinion of the art he was studying. That doesn't mean, however, that it was sufficient time for him to know all there is to know about an art, or for a given form for that matter, but it is long enough for him to evaluate his training both by direct observation (his) and indirect (watching the development of others).

The reason why is because it is not street but a sport, there are no friends out there to kick your head in, no chance of weapons..... do you want me to go on. I have no problem with how you train or who you train with but don't try and come in a forum like this and talk about kata being crap.

I'd say that any technique, trained properly, is as valid for "str33t" use as any other. I teach US Army Combatives, and even though it has come under fire from some grappling purists and striking purists, Combatives works if taught correctly. Arguing that there isn't an opponent around is garbage. Arguing that their training doesn't adequately describe defense against multiple opponents is a better approach. DKI folks don't seem to apply their pressure points against attackers that are any more than punch dummies standing stock still, but that doesn't stop them from believing they can use their "death touch" at full speed (even though there is no evidence that they could).

You're going down a particular path, and that's fine. So are some of us. I think it's a better path, a wider path, a longer path, but what the hell.

My fellow Scot shows some wisdom... I've been talking with some folks about gross motor movement stuff, and some RBSD theories, but I still believe that, though their methods will work, my TMA studies will ultimately allow me to reap greater benefits (because the path is wider and longer with more information available).

We can talk about aliveness, resistance and kata until we turn blue, but that still is NOT going to change anyones thinking!!!!!

I'd disagree... People can be educated at the least to better understand what the other person's perspective is... I used to be very critical of grappling. Then I opened my ears and listened to what was being said, tried a little grappling, and discovered for myself the validity of the training. I think, as far as I'm concerned, that I try to do the same for those who believe TMAs are outdated and out of touch. My belief is simply that "real" TMA training is misunderstood by those who discount its usefulness.

Enjoy.

 

[hedgehogey]

Three years is nothing granted I have not been in the Martial Arts for very long but I have been in for 10 years, and there are many people out there that have been doing it 20,30,40....

Apperantly it hasn't taught you the politeness and friendliness you supposedly get from it.

so your three years are nothing compaired to what others have done. Yes what you do is kata like it or not.

First of all, don't tell me what I do and don't train.

Second of all, by the definetion later in this thread, I do not do kata.

Yes I have fought NHB so don't patronize me about sportfighting I have fought in the Ruff Man several times but I have not done it for many years

Now you've dug yourself into a big hole.

Name, record and organization, please. Neither sherdog.com nor google reveal any NHB competition called "ruff man".

Remember, NHB records, like boxing records are easy to verify.

. The reason why is because it is not street but a sport, there are no friends out there to kick your head in, no chance of weapons..... do you want me to go on. I have no problem with how you train or who you train with but don't try and come in a forum like this and talk about kata being crap.

PPKO

Use the search function. Those assertions have been disproven a million times.

I could tell you a zillion things about forms, and you won't listen. You "just want to bang," right? Just to, "fight," right? You think all those Chinese men and women were just idjits, right?

Well, there's shuai chiao, mongolian wrestling, etc. So, no.

Then of course there's kyokushin. And of course Judo. Do you think jigoro kano was an idjit for making sportfighting the focus of his training?

Then there's the many southeast asian kickboxing styles.

Do you understand that arguement by authority is a logical fallacy?

Wanna try again with the vague accusation of anti-asian prejudice?

Funakoshi, Ueshiba, tired old farts who never had to really fight, right? Mr. Parker stuck all kinds of forms and sets into kenpo--so what? So what if Frank Trejo used to go out and win sparring and forms and tournaments--means nothing, right?

I don't know, and I don't care. These men are all dead. The question is, what can their students do now? Are the majority of their art's students effective fighters?

 

[loki09789]

Kata and the basics are really all that they or anyone really needs. When it all comes down to it the rest is gravy.
I teach my son . He hasnt sparred anyone of any rank just ran through the basics with me over and over fighting drills ect.

So I took him to a school (very well respected both in our area and on this site to)
I know I used to train at. They have a rep for being one of the better fighting schools around.

They started doing point matches . He held his own against a student who was about 3 ranks higher. All he did was basics. he hasnt spaared anyone except some white belts for the past 5 months.
I took him to another school (which also has a great rep) and he fought a kid who was about 3 ranks higher. Held his own went point for point with him. Even the kid kept commenting how good John was. the kid beat im by a 2 point kick
I found out out later the kid is rated #3 in the local circuit.
Bottom line is basics, basics and basics.
A guy I used to train with back in the day Jim Muse (check him out cover of B/B and other mags as well as a rated fighter for years) taught me the most important thing is fighting is timeing,distanceing and footwork. get those down and no one can touch you.

Sorry for babbling again..:>)

Funny you mention this. I have taught my son some as well. When he participated in his friends class during one of the "bring someone to class" promo sessions (trying to get more contracts filled...) he out did most/all of the green belts in the class in form/power/agility. I noticed that he was also better disciplined during the class than some of the regulars (funny how they always seem to behave better in public than they do at home ).

Basics, basics basics. Basic techniques, basic values, basic conduct expectations during the training. I make it a point of telling him when I am switching from 'dad' to 'instructor' and back to 'dad' so that he can mentally shift himself. It is tough to teach your own (Girlfriend, wife, children..) because the roles/relationship of teacher and student is different. Some people take it too personally. Reminds me of how fun it was to have my dad teach me to drive....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, Bruce Lee--the most famous contemporary advocate of abolishing kata and techniques--certainly is. Hm. What can we learn from this?

Mr. Trejo is very much alive, in all senses of, "alive." Get on kenponet; deliver a few of these claims; lure the bear out of his cave. Mazeltov.

It's clear that you, "don't know, and don't care." Leaving aside the hyperbole to generate an effect--you know, young radical, shaking up the tired, dead, hidebound elders and again, good for you and I mean that--you really might might to learn a little about what you're insulting.

"Politeness and friendliness?" Hm. Which of your posts exemplify this?

Interesting that you would cite Jigoro Kano, who made respect and good manners the heart of a system whose very name--judo--means what? "The gentle way?" Hm.

Mr. Ueshiba, just so you know, was taught by some of the meanest SOBs ever alive. He was a right-wing fanatic, who tried to help invade China during a peak of Japanese militarism. He gave it all up, for something better. But there's nothing there for you to learn....nothing about, "those who forget the past, are condemned to repeat it."

Interesting that you would write, "use your search function," to respond to other posters' remarks about actual fighting.

Oh yes. Incidentally--just so you'll know--argument by authority is not necessarily a logical fallacy. The logical fallacy lies in a) appealing to authority without thinking; b) appealing to authority as a substitute for facts and logic.

Let me be clear. You are reciting just as many cliches and dead ideas as anyone you're attacking. You've simply chosen a different set of cliches and dead ideas and authorities to appeal to, for that matter), and confused that decision with complete freedom.

Your argument's perfectly valid. It's just that I've seen it before--and yes, paid attention, with good reason.

Before teaching grandma how to suck eggs, and least make sure you understand how she's sucking.

 

[Matt Stone]

Apperantly it hasn't taught you the politeness and friendliness you supposedly get from it.

Hmmm...

First of all, don't tell me what I do and don't train.

But you presume to tell all of us that practice forms that what we are doing is dead, stiff, and unresponsive... You don't know how I, at least, train, and as offended as you may be by having PPKO make generalized assumptions about your training, I'm equally upset by your generalized assumptions about my training...

Second of all, by the definetion later in this thread, I do not do kata.

Which definition is that? Just so we can keep the terminology consistent and the definitions straight...

Now you've dug yourself into a big hole.

I was wondering if you'd pick up on that... I'm curious, too...

Use the search function. Those assertions have been disproven a million times.

What assumptions have been disproven? That rolling with someone who has friends isn't wise?

Now, I ask this in all sincerity... How does BJJ/GJJ deal with multiple attackers? From what I have seen of Royce in person during demos and on TV, their striking skills only serve the purpose of closing distance so they can grab hold of the opponent... What do they do when confronted by 2 or more opponents?

I don't know, and I don't care. These men are all dead. The question is, what can their students do now? Are the majority of their art's students effective fighters?

I think what McRobertson was hinting at was that Bruce is long since dead, and the skill of JKD students is rapidly waning... I have had three experiences in the last 3 years with JKD people, and I have yet to be impressed...

It is widely held that Bruce advocated discontinuing forms practice... Except he continued to practice his Wing Chun forms, a Taijiquan form he learned from his father, as well as several other forms from different CMA styles he had been exposed to. Would anyone care to comment on this?

 

[hedgehogey]

Hmmm...

*I* never claimed to be polite or respectful.



But you presume to tell all of us that practice forms that what we are doing is dead, stiff, and unresponsive... You don't know how I, at least, train, and as offended as you may be by having PPKO make generalized assumptions about your training, I'm equally upset by your generalized assumptions about my training...[/quote]
What PPKO was doing was the equivalent of me telling you "You don't practice kata and that's that!". We are having a debate about the effectiveness of training methods, not magically changing what the other person does.

Which definition is that? Just so we can keep the terminology consistent and the definitions straight...

gimme a minute

I was wondering if you'd pick up on that... I'm curious, too...

Seems a little fishy, huh? How much you wanna bet PPKO never responds to it?

What assumptions have been disproven? That rolling with someone who has friends isn't wise?

Assertions, not assumptions. But you bring up a good point. Is there any non anecdotal evidence that striking is safer than grappling when jumped?

Now, I ask this in all sincerity... How does BJJ/GJJ deal with multiple attackers? From what I have seen of Royce in person during demos and on TV, their striking skills only serve the purpose of closing distance so they can grab hold of the opponent... What do they do when confronted by 2 or more opponents?

Direct quote from rickson: "Glock."

And how do YOU train for getting jumped? Let's dispense with the term "multiple assailants". It's like calling rape a "nonconsensual sexual encounter".

I think what McRobertson was hinting at was that Bruce is long since dead, and the skill of JKD students is rapidly waning... I have had three experiences in the last 3 years with JKD people, and I have yet to be impressed...

You seem to have missed the point of JKD. JKD is (supposed to be) independent of bruce, growing and constantly changing.

Have you been to a straight blast gym affiliate?

It is widely held that Bruce advocated discontinuing forms practice... Except he continued to practice his Wing Chun forms, a Taijiquan form he learned from his father, as well as several other forms from different CMA styles he had been exposed to. Would anyone care to comment on this?

Noone ever said lee was perfect. Seriously, do you really think lee was holding back secret form knowledge to prevent his kung fu secrets from falling into the hands of the gwailos?

 

[MJS]

I'd disagree... People can be educated at the least to better understand what the other person's perspective is... I used to be very critical of grappling. Then I opened my ears and listened to what was being said, tried a little grappling, and discovered for myself the validity of the training. I think, as far as I'm concerned, that I try to do the same for those who believe TMAs are outdated and out of touch. My belief is simply that "real" TMA training is misunderstood by those who discount its usefulness.

Enjoy.

You're correct. People can be educated, and that is one of the reasons I like the forums..for that education. However, some people, no matter what you say, will just never see the value of what the other person is saying, and that should be very apparent, especially with this thread.

For example, the talk of aliveness. Even if someones art wasnt alive, they are still going to say that it is.

You're right again though, because the value of many things is often understood, and that can be for 2 reasons.

1- the person is just too closed minded and they dont want to see anything else.

2- the person is open minded, but when they ask for clarification of things, they are not provided with a very good example. I always go back to my kata conversation.

"Sir, why are we doing this move in a kata?

"Well........because thats the way its done!"

Thats why I'm always on the crosstraining bandwagon. There is so much out there, but people are not willing to take the time and sample things. Sure, it may already be in their art, but there are other ways of doing things. For example, I can train with Rickson Gracie and then the Machados. They both do BJJ, but they may have a different way of looking at things.

Mike

 

[Matt Stone]

*I* never claimed to be polite or respectful.

Sorry... My "hmmm" wasn't an indictment of your behavior, just a generic "hmmm" watching how you and PPKO interact. I know you from Bullshido, and I know how you typically post over there, so I'm not shocked by your method of communication. PPKO is trying to play the moral highground because of his karate training, but isn't fairing too well...

What PPKO was doing was the equivalent of me telling you "You don't practice kata and that's that!". We are having a debate about the effectiveness of training methods, not magically changing what the other person does.

Which is why I'm still in this discussion... It isn't so much that I'm trying to convince you to take up forms practice, just to allow the possibility that, in small instances (because, from the sheer quantity of know-nothings that teach forms, there simply isn't that large a percentage of good schools that teach forms and how they are integrated into training), forms training actually does help in the education of a good fighter. I'm not saying forms alone will produce that; I'm saying that their inclusion is still a good thing, something that anyone could benefit from if it was included in their training in the correct manner. That's all... You'll train how you want - nothing I say here is necessarily going to change that. Besides, if you took me simply at my word over the internet, you'd have way more issues to deal with than whether you use forms or not in your training...

gimme a minute

Waiting...

Seems a little fishy, huh? How much you wanna bet PPKO never responds to it?

Well, remember that the folks here at MT aren't the thick-skinned bunch over at Bullshido... They play a little nicer here, and in so doing some folks aren't accustomed to having a "put up or shut up" attitude thrown in their face. The fact that this is the more traditional approach to martial arts notwithstanding, Kaith Rustaz is trying to run a friendlier place than that...

I suspect PPKO may have, at one point, participated in some fashion in a local, homegrown, tough man contest of one kind or another. There likely wouldn't be an easily accessible record of that. And I don't recall PPKO saying that he won, just that he "fought NHB." Personally, I don't cite any competitions I've been in. Ever. All they mean is that on that day, at that moment, I did okay. Could have gone either way a minute or a day earlier or later.

Assertions, not assumptions. But you bring up a good point. Is there any non anecdotal evidence that striking is safer than grappling when jumped?

Nice rebuttal. I don't know of any anecdotal evidence that supports striking being safer than grappling. I know that with weapon arts, grappling is a huge no-no for obvious reasons. Grappling against impact weapons? Fine. Grappling against bladed weapons? Not so fine. In the arts that I've studied that dealt with weapon defense, none of them advocated using grappling techniques; it was control the weapon, control the attacker, disable the attacker. The attacker might end up on the ground, but it was striking that was employed to disable him. I'll do some checking around... I have a corrections officer friend that is a jujutsu student/teacher. I'll ask him what he has to say on the matter and get back to you...

Direct quote from rickson: "Glock."

Good comeback on Rickson's part. But the point still remains, minus the Glock, how does GJJ/BJJ deal with 2 or more opponents? I'm short on time, otherwise I'd outline the way Yiliquan deals with multiples. The point being, we have methods in place to train for and deal with multiple opponents. Does GJJ/BJJ? I'm not asking to be an a$$, I'm sincere in this (because I'm not discounting GJJ/BJJ effectiveness at all).

And how do YOU train for getting jumped? Let's dispense with the term "multiple assailants". It's like calling rape a "nonconsensual sexual encounter".

Later today or tomorrow (my wife's day off is today, and I plan on spending some time with her) I'll go into it.

You seem to have missed the point of JKD. JKD is (supposed to be) independent of bruce, growing and constantly changing.

Not at all. What I've seen of JKD (from two students and one teacher) hasn't been all that impressive, certainly nothing that'd make me an instant JKD convert. The theory and philosophy behind it isn't all that unique, and certainly isn't so sophisticated as to invalidate the TMAs I've studied (in fact, there has been a lot of overlap in many areas of T&P in all of them).

Have you been to a straight blast gym affiliate?

Can't say that I have. I'm not into trying to validate JKD, nor am I into invalidating it. I simply present my experience with it to date. I train. Period. I train in a lot of different methods to develop the art I study. I'm simply pointing out that the "new and improved" arts aren't all that new, and have yet to show me how improved they are over the older arts...

Noone ever said lee was perfect. Seriously, do you really think lee was holding back secret form knowledge to prevent his kung fu secrets from falling into the hands of the gwailos?

No, not at all. I think his students simply misunderstood and misinterpreted much of what he had to say... Maybe not the first few generations, but certainly there are JKD people today that are misinterpreting his theories and proclaiming their knowledge as gospel. My teacher was a JKD chapter leader way back when, and I'll take his word on the fact that what JKD has/had to offer in the early days is a reinvention of the wheel... It might have turned the establishment on its ear back in the 60's, but (at least in comparison to the TMAs I've studied) it isn't that revolutionary...

More later.

 

[hedgehogey]

Hedgey - you assume we all do ma in order to become fighters. There are brawlers and there are fighters. Brawlers have no technique to speak of and rely on brute strength and intimidation. Fighters fight with technique and think about what they are doing many 'moves' ahead, as in a chess game. In my opinion, that's why it takes time to become a fighter, assuming that's what you want out of your ma training.

But if you're not a "fighter" after ten years of training in a style, it can't be called useful for self defense.

I didn't read anything saying you were lazy.

As to your having been a live-in student, most of us haven't had and will never have the opportunity to do so. Can you tell us a little about it? I can't imagine a better opportunity to train than that if you are a serious student.
Thanks for your viewpoint. KT:asian:

It is not all it's cracked up to be. I lived in the dojo, cleaned the dojo, minded the store, got yelled at if there was a speck of dust. It's a lot like being in the military.
I won't name the guy I was under, since I still like him, and wouldn't want to see him lose buiseness.

 

[hedgehogey]

Sorry... My "hmmm" wasn't an indictment of your behavior, just a generic "hmmm" watching how you and PPKO interact. I know you from Bullshido, and I know how you typically post over there, so I'm not shocked by your method of communication. PPKO is trying to play the moral highground because of his karate training, but isn't fairing too well...

So be glad there's no HUGE,THROBBING-....oops. Nevermind.

Which is why I'm still in this discussion... It isn't so much that I'm trying to convince you to take up forms practice, just to allow the possibility that, in small instances (because, from the sheer quantity of know-nothings that teach forms, there simply isn't that large a percentage of good schools that teach forms and how they are integrated into training), forms training actually does help in the education of a good fighter. I'm not saying forms alone will produce that; I'm saying that their inclusion is still a good thing, something that anyone could benefit from if it was included in their training in the correct manner. That's all... You'll train how you want - nothing I say here is necessarily going to change that. Besides, if you took me simply at my word over the internet, you'd have way more issues to deal with than whether you use forms or not in your training..

If drilling moves in the air is kata, there's nothing wrong with that. If you wanna define things that way, every MA does kata.
What I think of as useless for fighting is long sequences of reverse punches and sidekicks done in the air with multiple kiais.When I think "kata" that's what comes to mind.

Waiting...

CAN'T GODAMN FIND IT

Well, remember that the folks here at MT aren't the thick-skinned bunch over at Bullshido... They play a little nicer here, and in so doing some folks aren't accustomed to having a "put up or shut up" attitude thrown in their face. The fact that this is the more traditional approach to martial arts notwithstanding, Kaith Rustaz is trying to run a friendlier place than that...

But PPKO claimed to be an NHB fighter. NHB fighters typically aren't sensitive people, and all will gladly provide their record if asked.

I suspect PPKO may have, at one point, participated in some fashion in a local, homegrown, tough man contest of one kind or another. There likely wouldn't be an easily accessible record of that. And I don't recall PPKO saying that he won, just that he "fought NHB." Personally, I don't cite any competitions I've been in. Ever. All they mean is that on that day, at that moment, I did okay. Could have gone either way a minute or a day earlier or later.

But I would ask you if you were saying "competition is useless".

Nice rebuttal. I don't know of any anecdotal evidence that supports striking being safer than grappling.

You got it. It's just ASSUMED that it's safer to strike than to grapple. It's a "self evident" non-fact.

I know that with weapon arts, grappling is a huge no-no for obvious reasons. Grappling against impact weapons? Fine. Grappling against bladed weapons? Not so fine. In the arts that I've studied that dealt with weapon defense, none of them advocated using grappling techniques; it was control the weapon, control the attacker, disable the attacker.

And how are you going to control the weapon hand without grabbing the dude? Is a wrist lock not a grappling technique?

By the way: I submit as non anecdotal evidence, the dog brothers, who have found in their stick and "knife" fighting that grappling is of great utility.

The attacker might end up on the ground, but it was striking that was employed to disable him. I'll do some checking around... I have a corrections officer friend that is a jujutsu student/teacher. I'll ask him what he has to say on the matter and get back to you...

MOST traditional jiujitsu schools advocate using some form of lock to take the weapon.

Good comeback on Rickson's part. But the point still remains, minus the Glock, how does GJJ/BJJ deal with 2 or more opponents? I'm short on time, otherwise I'd outline the way Yiliquan deals with multiples. The point being, we have methods in place to train for and deal with multiple opponents. Does GJJ/BJJ? I'm not asking to be an a$$, I'm sincere in this (because I'm not discounting GJJ/BJJ effectiveness at all).

We break their joints or choke them out. Gettin jumped is almost exactly like fighting one person. It's just a LOT harder.

Although there is one ability unique to the grappling arts for use in that situation: Hostage taking.

Later today or tomorrow (my wife's day off is today, and I plan on spending some time with her) I'll go into it.

You wanto spend time with wife, rather than debate? YOU BAD STUDENT.

Not at all. What I've seen of JKD (from two students and one teacher) hasn't been all that impressive, certainly nothing that'd make me an instant JKD convert. The theory and philosophy behind it isn't all that unique, and certainly isn't so sophisticated as to invalidate the TMAs I've studied (in fact, there has been a lot of overlap in many areas of T&P in all of them).

Matt Thornton goes into exactly that. Many JKD schools are just repeating a new set of dead patterns.

Can't say that I have. I'm not into trying to validate JKD, nor am I into invalidating it. I simply present my experience with it to date. I train. Period. I train in a lot of different methods to develop the art I study. I'm simply pointing out that the "new and improved" arts aren't all that new, and have yet to show me how improved they are over the older arts...

Try a class at an SBGi affiliate. It's a world of difference from most JKD. An MMA gym would work also.

 

[ppko]

Ruff Man is ran by Jim Thomas in Richmond,IN my record in the ruff man is 5 and 1. Remember you are the one that started out being disrespectful here not me, in my oppinion most of the time I am very respectful.


Mr. Stone,
I will stand behind on what I said before on time in the Martial Arts meaning a lot. As there are many people that are very knowledgeable out there and have been in for quite a long time, but at the same time there are people out there that could be in the Martial ARts for 40 years and never know anything it all depends on there teacher. I sure as hell don't know everything, and I learn everyday.


PPKO

 

[hedgehogey]

Ruff Man is ran by Jim Thomas in Richmond,IN my record in the ruff man is 5 and 1. Remember you are the one that started out being disrespectful here not me, in my oppinion most of the time I am very respectful.
PPKO

And your name please, so I can verify that you competed in this event? Methods of victory?

 

[Flatlander]

What difference does it really make if he competed or not, Hedgehogey? Why are you not able to accept his claim that he did? How do you intend to attempt to verify it anyway? How does it contribute to "the value of kata and basics"?

 

[Matt Stone]

What difference does it really make if he competed or not, Hedgehogey?

Because the claim that he did was offered as proof that PPKO has done so and is an accomplished fighter. If he did, fine. If he did not, on the other hand, then that is another matter entirely...

Why are you not able to accept his claim that he did?

Because it is all too easy for someone to claim victories in competition if they are not taken to task on proving their claims...

How do you intend to attempt to verify it anyway?

Call the promoter and ask for verification is what comes to my mind.

How does it contribute to "the value of kata and basics"?

Only in substantiating a) the nature of the competition (sounds more like a tough man competition rather than a NHB/MA competition) and b) PPKO's claim to having fought.

 

[Matt Stone]

If drilling moves in the air is kata, there's nothing wrong with that. If you wanna define things that way, every MA does kata.

That is all I was pointing out, at least from my set of definitions... Whether it is one technique or a dozen, we all practice throwing techniques in the empty air. When we link several techniques together and pass that combination on to another "generation" of fighters, we have "created" a form that communicates information from teacher to student.

What I think of as useless for fighting is long sequences of reverse punches and sidekicks done in the air with multiple kiais. When I think "kata" that's what comes to mind.

Well, bear in mind though that a typical kata isn't intended to be done from start to finish on one opponent, but is actually a set of combinations, engagements against one or more opponents, linked together through some common theme.

CAN'T GODAMN FIND IT

Look harder hog boy...

But PPKO claimed to be an NHB fighter. NHB fighters typically aren't sensitive people, and all will gladly provide their record if asked.

Oh, all you BJJ guys are incredibly sensitive... Especially when between the legs of your partner... :supcool:

But I would ask you if you were saying "competition is useless".

Not useless, but like any other aspect of combative training, it has to be kept in perspective. I learned a lot from competing, lessons that I continue to learn from today. However, were I to take it as something it wasn't, I'd end up being just as bad as most Bullshidoka running amok in the world...

Competition is fine. But it isn't reality, just a reasonable facsimilie thereof. It is a slice of life with limitations, a safety net where one typically doesn't exist. I'd compete again, but I'm too lazy to sit around for a few hours waiting to get my name called so I can fight some schmuck for no reason. I'd rather beat on my training partners instead!

You got it. It's just ASSUMED that it's safer to strike than to grapple. It's a "self evident" non-fact.

I'd say that the mobility of striking (i.e. being able to move away from the opponent, putting distance and obstacles between you and he) is one of the primary strengths that puts it above grappling when dealing with multiples.

And how are you going to control the weapon hand without grabbing the dude? Is a wrist lock not a grappling technique?

And we are back to the definition game... Grappling means different things to different people. When I speak of grappling, I am referring to the wrestling aspect, ground fighting, rolling. If I speak of joint locks, I say joint locks, I say throws when I refer to throws. Grappling, to me, is the mount, guard, etc., techniques executed from a non-standing position and in such close proximity to the opponent you can feel his heartbeat on some part of your body.

By the way: I submit as non anecdotal evidence, the dog brothers, who have found in their stick and "knife" fighting that grappling is of great utility.

The Dog Brothers are one of the greatest examples of how "living" martial arts develop... Without a real conflict, everything else is just so much conjecture. I'm not saying that joint locks and throws are useless against weapons; quite the contrary. I'm saying that I wouldn't want to end up in a rolling situation with an adversary armed with a knife... Ick.

Matt Thornton goes into exactly that. Many JKD schools are just repeating a new set of dead patterns.

JKD wasn't really a new philosophy, but it was "new" to folks who hadn't ever been exposed to that kind of thinking. Ultimately, though, as a result of the fallout from the lineage war of JKD, it became exactly what Brucie never wanted it to be in the first place.

Try a class at an SBGi affiliate. It's a world of difference from most JKD. An MMA gym would work also.

If I ever get a chance, I will...

 

[RRouuselot]

First off I gotta ask those that think kata is useless this question:

Why do you think old karateka practiced kata?

(Please don’t give me the canned answer "it was a form of shadow boxing" )

Do you think they would honestly practice something that had no value?

Do you think they were just plain old stupid and couldn’t fight?



What kata is/does:

Kata is an encyclopedia of collected techniques that were put together by one or several people through years of experience in actual fights.

A person would find a technique that worked and save it, maybe find another and save it as well. After a while maybe compare "notes" on techniques that worked with people of the same family or village. Later these techniques possibly got to be more than one could remember separately therefore in order to remember them all they were put into some sort of pattern or sequence in order to better remember them.
In some cases these were patterned into a dance like pattern. In Okinawa there is a dance called the "meikata dance" which looks like a karate kata and many people consider it to be one.

This was actually a good idea if you think about it since people can remember patterns and sequence better than individual bits of scattered information.

Why do some kata moves not look like fighting techniques?

As stated above kata are kind of "notes" if you will and as with written notes karate "notes" are often abbreviated as well. Example: In Naihanchi Shodan about the 10th move in the kata can be a counter and strike to the face or it can be a rear naked choke as seen in many UFC type competitions......depending on your needs. Those of you that know the proper version of this kata should be able to pick up on what I just described.

This is were it takes a bit of skill and preservation to "read" the "notes" of kata. Sometimes the moves in kata can be backwards to the way they are executed, sometimes they are what is being done to you, what you are doing to them, sometimes a strike can be a block and a block can be a strike...........and so on.........like I said....it’s not east to read kata.

Are the techniques in kata done in the same sequence as the kata is performed?

Hell no.

Kata techniques can be mixed and matched..........I take that back......they SHOULD be mixed and matched. Anyone that tells you kata self-defense techniques are done in the same sequence as the kata is performed is a dumb ***.

Will only practicing kata help you win in a fight?

Hell no.

You need to study the kata and THEN apply the techniques you have discovered/learned and put them into some sort of realistic training drill so that you can become proficient at them. They need to be done with a bit of realism and control at first then sped up to more realism and more control as you progress. You can’t go from crawling to a full run........you need to learn to stand then walk first.


Lastly...........Is kata and it's training methods and purpose grossly misunderstood by most people that practice it?
Hell yes!

 

[ppko]

First off I gotta ask those that think kata is useless this question:

Why do you think old karateka practiced kata?

(Please don’t give me the canned answer "it was a form of shadow boxing" )

Do you think they would honestly practice something that had no value?

Do you think they were just plain old stupid and couldn’t fight?



What kata is/does:

Kata is an encyclopedia of collected techniques that were put together by one or several people through years of experience in actual fights.

A person would find a technique that worked and save it, maybe find another and save it as well. After a while maybe compare "notes" on techniques that worked with people of the same family or village. Later these techniques possibly got to be more than one could remember separately therefore in order to remember them all they were put into some sort of pattern or sequence in order to better remember them.
In some cases these were patterned into a dance like pattern. In Okinawa there is a dance called the "meikata dance" which looks like a karate kata and many people consider it to be one.

This was actually a good idea if you think about it since people can remember patterns and sequence better than individual bits of scattered information.

Why do some kata moves not look like fighting techniques?

As stated above kata are kind of "notes" if you will and as with written notes karate "notes" are often abbreviated as well. Example: In Naihanchi Shodan about the 10th move in the kata can be a counter and strike to the face or it can be a rear naked choke as seen in many UFC type competitions......depending on your needs. Those of you that know the proper version of this kata should be able to pick up on what I just described.

This is were it takes a bit of skill and preservation to "read" the "notes" of kata. Sometimes the moves in kata can be backwards to the way they are executed, sometimes they are what is being done to you, what you are doing to them, sometimes a strike can be a block and a block can be a strike...........and so on.........like I said....it’s not east to read kata.

Are the techniques in kata done in the same sequence as the kata is performed?

Hell no.

Kata techniques can be mixed and matched..........I take that back......they SHOULD be mixed and matched. Anyone that tells you kata self-defense techniques are done in the same sequence as the kata is performed is a dumb ***.

Will only practicing kata help you win in a fight?

Hell no.

You need to study the kata and THEN apply the techniques you have discovered/learned and put them into some sort of realistic training drill so that you can become proficient at them. They need to be done with a bit of realism and control at first then sped up to more realism and more control as you progress. You can’t go from crawling to a full run........you need to learn to stand then walk first.


Lastly...........Is kata and it's training methods and purpose grossly misunderstood by most people that practice it?
Hell yes!

A great post I know we don't always agree but I do agree with you here


PPKO

 

[RRouuselot]

Here are some drawings of the move I mentioned from Naihanchi Shodan.
Look at numbers 17 and 18.

http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/soc_pages/karate/pages/Naihanchi/naipart2.htm

Now I have two questions for anyone that is interested.

1) Why is the head turned to the side?

2) Why is the leg lifted?

 

[ppko]

Here are some drawings of the move I mentioned from Naihanchi Shodan.
Look at numbers 17 and 18.

http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/soc_pages/karate/pages/Naihanchi/naipart2.htm

Now I have two questions for anyone that is interested.

1) Why is the head turned to the side?

2) Why is the leg lifted?

1) the head turned to the side I can only guess is looking at the opponent that you are attacking.
2) the leg is lifted to show where you are kicking on the opponent when you apply this move.



PPKO

 

[RRouuselot]

1) the head turned to the side I can only guess is looking at the opponent that you are attacking.
2) the leg is lifted to show where you are kicking on the opponent when you apply this move.
PPKO

Nope.

What technique(s) are being done?
Think about what I said on how to "read" kata......hint...things aren't always what they seem........and not always the first thing you think of.