The "Reality" of UFC/NHB fighting, pressure testing sports moves, and the Real World.

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-Your strawmen and insults prove nothing. I though this forum didn't allow insults like this and was "above" it? Or does that only apply to the "sport guys"?

Insults yes.
Strawman no. While there are holes purposefully inserted into my arguments, you've yet to find, and exploit them.

 

[RoninPimp]

If you knew much of the back history of the traditional arts, you would find ample evidence of their effectiveness.

A quick search turned up this: http://www.internaldamagetaichi.com/
Seems more akin to a fighting art that a senior moment to me.

Quoting TomMarker at SDF:


and then there is http://www.chung-hua.com/taichicombat.html which gives a bit more info on how it is used as a combat art.

Then again, they don't teach this down at the local health club or community center.

-The technique video in that first link is pathetic. I cannot believe you would post that as evidence of effective fighting technique. The second link is what? Add copy? How does that prove anything?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I wasn't posting them for video critiques. More the information around them. As I said "quick search". Though I don't think SDF would be considered ad copy.

 

[Robert Lee]

a person can go train any where they can. Is it effective for them it is to there own personal limits. No style or method should be considered best. And Words they are just words Agin how we train helps performance. exposer to the different aspects of fighting a person finds uses and weakness that needs work. If you never watched a ufc fighter and then fought himon the streets I bet he would not tell hey I am a MM/A ufc fighter. Then if you won or lost was it TMA or MMA that won NO it was that fighter that day. Now if you won so easy or lost so bad you might think different But agin its that fight that day. Win you did something right loose you need more understanding on your methods. Best of all Most MMa or TMA people do not go out and fight just to be doing it. So perhaps you go a lifetime and never need to really fight. But you trained that life time to fight and most of all be some kind of better person to your family yor friends and your neighbor. What did you get then M/A taught you more then just to fight it helped you to become a better person. So it payed off in more ways then one. We all know that M/A does not make you able to fight it helps you to be able to fight better then before How much it is up to you Not TMA versus MMA Those that instruct How many students are now better then you how many as good How many have come and gone never staying long enough to learn much An instructor should try to relate training to a point that students are espected to become better then him. That means giving intruction that takes them forward in method that give quality of learning Thats not done teaching a full class. Thats working with each and evry student finding and seeing there personal needs so they can apply the parts of there style/ method in there way. We are not like robots to all think the same and do the same. Tools are given then the person finds ways to use them. The intsructor assists there. So be it boxing MMA TMA ect its not set that one is better for real time use More time defending by words shows less time training if you are comfortable where you are at and trust what you can do ok But I was taught we can all learn something from even the dumbest person So we can all learn something from all methods of combat

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I wasn't posting them for video critiques. More the information around them. As I said "quick search". Though I don't think SDF would be considered ad copy.

He won't get it Bobby. Problem with being a 386 in a 64Bit world.

 

[shinbushi]

Keep in mind that what we now call "traditaional" were actually new and cutting-edge back in their day. They are only traditional to us, because by comparison, they are older. The arts have always undergone change, as people felt they had a better way to do things. What we see now as MMA, someday will probably fall within the ranks of "traditional".

Actually many of the training methods, overly relying on forms, point sparring, on contact drills which is in the curriculumsof Many TMA, is not that traditional. many of the training methods of combat sports were how many warriorstraining in times of peace. Both in Japan and Greece. The Olympics was basically a way for different nation states to show off their martial skills of their warriors without having to go to war.

 

[RoninPimp]

The simple fact that training for competition is not the same as training for battle. Street fights and war have no rounds, no time outs, no DQ, no ref and rarely any rules.

The NHB fighter may have better cardio, better pain resistance and tolerance, and more strength. He needs it, because, like a boxer, he must withstand a number of punishing blows while getting into postition to try and twist or choke someone into submission. He isn't worrying about the guy pulling a blade, or someone hitting him from behind with a bottle. Its 1-on-1, unarmed.

Next time you roll, do it 2 on 1. Add in a pair of rubber (ie safe) training blades. It changes things. Considering that almost 100% of competitions are unarmed, and over 60% of street confrontations are armed, that makes a difference. All the cardio and all the endurance in the world isn't going to save you if it's a 3 on 1, and they're packing heat. The only thing you'll be packing is your shorts. Mike Tyson's a bad ***, but he isn't worrying about Hollyfield pulling a glock in the 3rd round. So I doubt he trains for that situation.

Show me a NHB/UFC training course that includes weapon use and disarms, street smart tactics, etc, and I might change my attitude.

-The BJJ curriculum I've been exposed to has weapon disarms and addresses "street smart tactics" aka awareness.

-You do list potential flaws with MMA training. They are the same EXACT potential flaws with TMA training. That's why its a strawman. Facing weapons or mutiples with empty hands is a losing proposition no matter your training background. How does that in any way argue for your claim that TMA empty hand techniques are the equal of MMA techniques? It doesn't. Why can you not grasp this concept? Why do refuse to address this question?

 

[RoninPimp]

He won't get it Bobby. Problem with being a 386 in a 64Bit world.

-Mods, are insults now allowed? I will THRIVE if they are. Please let me know. I will not unleash the floodgates unless a Mod says its OK.

 

[RoninPimp]

I wasn't posting them for video critiques. More the information around them. As I said "quick search". Though I don't think SDF would be considered ad copy.

-The "information" on those pages is not verafiable, because it is not footnoted. Therefore, for all intents and purposes it is add copy.

 

[RoninPimp]

Actually many of the training methods, overly relying on forms, point sparring, on contact drills which is in the curriculumsof Many TMA, is not that traditional. many of the training methods of combat sports were how many warriorstraining in times of peace. Both in Japan and Greece. The Olympics was basically a way for different nation states to show off their martial skills of their warriors without having to go to war.

-Excellent point! The sport training method is as old as war.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

1- And where is that, who is the instructor, and what is his or her background? Did they "test" every technique they taught you on the street?

2- Yes, they are. Yes it is. I have addressed the question. You are incapable of understanding the answer. I will try again, in simplier terms.

Sport not = street
Street not = sport

techniques designed for sport not best for street.
techniques designed for street not best for sport.
sport techniques avoid 'danger' spots. You get DQ if use them.
street techniques target 'danger' spots. You get time in cell, friend named bubba if use them. But you be live.

we be clear? me speak slow now, hope understand do you.
jedi you become.
use the force Pimp!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-The "information" on those pages is not verafiable, because it is not footnoted. Therefore, for all intents and purposes it is add copy.

Ok, so with proper references, please show where tai chi has been scientifically proven to be an ineffective self defense art. Without referencing any UFC fights though, since those are sports and not self defense situations.

I will accept police reports, published journals, or expert witness testimony.
But not "my buddy said" or "well there was this thread on this forum".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

For the record, if anyone reading has a problem, use the Report to Mod feature. I'm in this discussion and will not be bothered to moderate it. Theres 20+ mods on this site. I'm certain theres more than 1 of them who will see any reports that members send in and investigate.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-Mods, are insults now allowed? I will THRIVE if they are. Please let me know. I will not unleash the floodgates unless a Mod says its OK.

I know you will. Damn mud, gets on everything. One would almost think, it wasn't really mud, but something slightly, stickier and more, ah, fragrant.

Hey, is that hay mixed in there?

 

[RoninPimp]

1- And where is that, who is the instructor, and what is his or her background? Did they "test" every technique they taught you on the street?

2- Yes, they are. Yes it is. I have addressed the question. You are incapable of understanding the answer. I will try again, in simplier terms.

Sport not = street
Street not = sport

techniques designed for sport not best for street.
techniques designed for street not best for sport.
sport techniques avoid 'danger' spots. You get DQ if use them.
street techniques target 'danger' spots. You get time in cell, friend named bubba if use them. But you be live.

we be clear? me speak slow now, hope understand do you.
jedi you become.
use the force Pimp!

-I guess I will ask you again then, what are these techniques that are used in sport that won't work in the street? A jab and cross? O Soto Gari? Knees from the clinch? Elbows from the mount?

-And why couldn't an MMA guy use dirty techniques like eye gouges and groin strikes? He would be better at them because if he is better at hitting your head with a jab and cross, he'll be better at it if your eyes are the target.

 

[RoninPimp]

Ok, so with proper references, please show where tai chi has been scientifically proven to be an ineffective self defense art. Without referencing any UFC fights though, since those are sports and not self defense situations.

I will accept police reports, published journals, or expert witness testimony.
But not "my buddy said" or "well there was this thread on this forum".

-For the hundreth time...You made the claim of it's effectiveness. Therefore the burden of proof lies with you. I cannot prove a negative. This is how science works. This is how the courts and law works too.

The MMA jock riders are wrong. TMA is NOT full of nerds and geeks. Nerds and geeks would understand middle school level science.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Tell you what Pimple, you answer how training 100% unarmed will equip you to deal with the 60% of armed encounters, and I'll answer your 2 questions. But please, make it fast. I'd like to reply before the cops get here and make me tap.

 

[Andrew Green]

How about we try a different approach to this....

MMA is to boxing as martial arts as a whole is to MMA.

Boxing skills are important in MMA, but on there own don't mean much. Too many other variables. Against a unskilled fighter this might not ba a issue though, you don't need everything too win.

MMA is a specialized aspect of martial arts in the same way. It does not take into account much outside of a one on one fight. Other stuff can be added through training, despite it not being a competitive format. We can train weapons, 2 on 1, dirty tactics with limitations, etc.

But not everything can fit within that realm.

What about cases where you need to physically control a person, but they are not actively fighting? So you don't want to do any damage, just move them or hold them?

How about cases where they are actively trying to hit you, but have no skill and are just flailing... maybe a drunk, maybe a child, maybe you work with mentally ill patients?

These sort of cases present problems for pressure testing as the reactions of the person you would be doing them on do not match those of a competitor.

Another thing to consider is that untrained people react differently then trained ones. a single solid punch to the solar plexis "karate style" most likely will drop someone that is not used to getting hit. But will not stop someone that is.

There are limitations to both methods, and they cover different types of situations. MMA fighters tedn to understand the value of being well rounded within the rules of their training, and most tend to avoid making claims outside of that.

Personally I think that a person could become even more well rounded, bringing in "traditional" techniques, that while they may not work on trained fighters, are still really good techniques.

There are good people on both sides, that have good stuff to offer. And of course their are idiots on both sides who should be ignored.

But, wouldn't the benefit of a large, multi discipline board be too learn from each other, rather then trying to force everyone into our box?

 

[shinbushi]

[FONT=&quot]

BUT I have heard from several people over the years the old story in this kata you fighting 2 3 4 people. THATS not good instruction from there instructor. In a kata you are not fighting any body. You are solo training and each movement breaks down to a separate application.

A little off topic, but that is assuming the karate, tae kwon do, Kung Fu model of kata or forms. Most indigenous JMA have 2-man kata. Both the unarmed and armed (kenjutsu, bojutsu, sojutsu etc) arts[/FONT]

 

[RoninPimp]

Tell you what Pimple, you answer how training 100% unarmed will equip you to deal with the 60% of armed encounters, and I'll answer your 2 questions. But please, make it fast. I'd like to reply before the cops get here and make me tap.

-It wouldn't, but why are you saying MMA guys limited to 100% unarmed training? True, in a MMA specific class they will be doing more ring focussed techniques and strategies. The basics from that will still work for unarmed situations though. If they are interested in weapons training they should train weapons in the same manner. Drill and spar. Drill and spar. I have never argued against this. Both MMA and TMA empty hand techniques are of little value when faced with weapons and mutiples. The sport training method is the path to truth in combat, whether its empty hands or not.

-Now please answer my questions.