The "Reality" of UFC/NHB fighting, pressure testing sports moves, and the Real World.

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Recently, a small group of vocal individuals arrived on these here shores. They are firm believers in the "Reality" arts, and often look down on those who do not worship at the altar of Shamrock and Ortiz.

They insist on "pressure testing" their so called techniques. That those who do not are some how, "wimps" and "geeks" or, worse.

So, how "real" are these so-called "No Holds Bared" fights that these "Modern Day Warriors" use to "test" themselves?

Not very.

Well, that is not true.

If one is looking strictly for sport, they are very real. As real as Pro Boxing, and Pro Hockey.

But if one is looking at these contests as a way to test one's ability to defend oneself, they are as "real" as the WWE style Pro Wrestling.

Why?

Simple. A -real- fight has only 1 rule.
Survive.

There are no forbidden holds, moves, etc.

Yes, there are consequences to your actions. If you kill your opponent, you're in deep ****. But, there is no "rule" that will "DQ" you.

So, what can you do in the street, but not the UFC?

UFC Rules
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
Fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

PRIDE's rules are very similar:

http://www.pridefc.com/pride2004/about/rules.htm
1
No head butting, eye gouging, hair pulling, biting or fish hooking.
2
No attacking the groin
3
No strikes (kicks, elbows, punching) to the back of the head (which includes the occipital region and the spine). The sides of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.
4
No small joint manipulation (control of four or more fingers/toes is necessary).
5
No elbow strikes to the head and face.
6
No intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring.
7
No running out of the ring.
8
No purposely holding the ropes. Fighters cannot purposely hang an arm or leg on the ropes. Hanging on the ropes will result in an immediate warning.
9
No kicks or knees to the head or the face of an opponent who falls face down.
10
No application of oil, ointment, spray, Vaseline, massaging cream, hair cream, or any other substances is permitted to any part of the fighter's body before and during the fights. The discovery of any of these substances will result in a disqualification.

So, eliminated are the majority of effective "take out" moves. This greatly lessens if not eliminates the effectiveness of these techniques.

So, how does one "Win"?

Easy.

Ways To Win:
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision.
Split decision.
Majority decision.
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.

In a -real- fight, there are no referees. No "Tap outs". No TKO's. No "decisions" or "disqualifications.". There is simply the one who survived, and the vanquished. The later often in a very bad way.

In fact, PRIDE is very specific in stating that they are a SPORT and NOT REAL COMBAT!

In the PRIDE FIGHTING CHAMPIONSHIPS the safety of the fighters and the integrity of the sport are of the utmost importance. The rules of our organization exist to protect the fighters...

The "Safety of the fighters"..."protect the fighters".

It's a sport people, not a "testing ground".

There may be a "do not walk on the grass" sign, but the Marine ducking gunfire doesn't care. In the same way, the guy with the knife asking for your wallet doesn't care about that nice trophy you won for good sportsmanship. Fight on the street like you do in the ring...go home in a bag.

It's that simple.

 

[RoninPimp]

Recently, a small group of vocal individuals arrived on these here shores. They are firm believers in the "Reality" arts, and often look down on those who do not worship at the altar of Shamrock and Ortiz.

They insist on "pressure testing" their so called techniques. That those who do not are some how, "wimps" and "geeks" or, worse.

So, how "real" are these so-called "No Holds Bared" fights that these "Modern Day Warriors" use to "test" themselves?

Not very.

Well, that is not true.

If one is looking strictly for sport, they are very real. As real as Pro Boxing, and Pro Hockey.

But if one is looking at these contests as a way to test one's ability to defend oneself, they are as "real" as the WWE style Pro Wrestling.

Why?

Simple. A -real- fight has only 1 rule.
Survive.

There are no forbidden holds, moves, etc.

Yes, there are consequences to your actions. If you kill your opponent, you're in deep ****. But, there is no "rule" that will "DQ" you.

So, what can you do in the street, but not the UFC?



PRIDE's rules are very similar:


So, eliminated are the majority of effective "take out" moves. This greatly lessens if not eliminates the effectiveness of these techniques.

So, how does one "Win"?

Easy.



In a -real- fight, there are no referees. No "Tap outs". No TKO's. No "decisions" or "disqualifications.". There is simply the one who survived, and the vanquished. The later often in a very bad way.

In fact, PRIDE is very specific in stating that they are a SPORT and NOT REAL COMBAT!


The "Safety of the fighters"..."protect the fighters".

It's a sport people, not a "testing ground".

There may be a "do not walk on the grass" sign, but the Marine ducking gunfire doesn't care. In the same way, the guy with the knife asking for your wallet doesn't care about that nice trophy you won for good sportsmanship. Fight on the street like you do in the ring...go home in a bag.

It's that simple.

-And I thought the pro sport training methodology guys were always the trolls...But I'll bite anyway...

It is as simple as the scientific method to me...

You come up with a hypothesis. You design experiments to test that hypothesis. If the results of the tests don't support your hypothesis, you adjust your hypothesis and retest. Once your hypothesis is supportable with repeatable results by anybody. It becomes good solid theory.

MMA is that experiment as far as one on one empty hand techniques go. Until somebody comes up with an experiment that is more realistic for empty hands MMA will be the dominant theory on empty hand techniques. Is it perfect? No. Weapons and mutiple oponents aren't addressed, but it is as empiracle as it gets for one on one empty hands techniques.

Arguing hypothesis against hypothesis is for theologians and philosophers. Not martial artists. I'll stick to the scientific method and the solid theory it reveals.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Which means it is great for sport, but useless for the street.

How many street fights are "one on one"?
How many do not involve a weapon of some kind?

Can you "tap me out" if I'm holding a blade? Please try. It doesn't work. A good number of the positions you place yourself in, and the restrictions demanded as a sport, eliminate the effectiveness as a reality training tool.

Allow me just these:
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.

and I can put a 300lb champion in a world of hurt as he is not "Trained to defend against them.".

Sport arts are like coloring inside the lines. The real world is never that neat.

But, since you are one of the experts who profess that this is real, effective and legit I will ask you: Where do you "test", what is your win-loss record, and what's your success record against someone 2 weight classes above you?

 

[tshadowchaser]

I must agree that in a real fight there are no rules except those which you put upon youslef.
Any santioned fight/match must have rules and when their are rules certian moves,strikes, etc. will not be allowed

 

[RoninPimp]

Which means it is great for sport, but useless for the street.

-How in the entire friggin universe is a jab and cross combo, or knees from the clinch, or elbows from the mount not useful for the str33t?

How many street fights are "one on one"?

-Some. Does anybody have effective techniques aginst mutiple opponents?

How many do not involve a weapon of some kind?

-See my response above just change "mutiple opponents" to "weapons".

Can you "tap me out" if I'm holding a blade?

-No. Pull a knife on me and I WILL shoot you though.

A good number of the positions you place yourself in, and the restrictions demanded as a sport, eliminate the effectiveness as a reality training tool

-No they do not. They empiracly show what works one on one with no weapon. Some SD can look like that.

Allow me just these:
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.

and I can put a 300lb champion in a world of hurt as he is not "Trained to defend against them.".

-To do 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8 requires you to be in a dominate position with someone. MMA ground training is built around gaining a dominate position. How do you plan to do that if you don't train to do it? And what would proclude you hypothetical "300lbs champion" from training defenses against them?

But, since you are one of the experts who profess that this is real, effective and legit I will ask you: Where do you "test", what is your win-loss record, and what's your success record against someone 2 weight classes above you?

-I have never claimed expertise, but I've been training in this stuff for a long time. I train with guys way heavier than me all the time. Sometimes I'm the hammer. Sometimes I'm the nail.

 

[Andrew Green]

Ok, I think it's important to make a distinction right away between the training method (pressure test) and the competition format...

Weapons can be trained with live, with protection. Eye gouges? Safety goggles. Two on one? go for it, it's lots of fun

These things aren't allowed in competition, but can be trained.

To look at the competitive format and judge the entire system of training based on competition rules would be as ignorant as to look at WTF sparring and judge TKD based solely on that, or point fighting for karate.

Presssure testing != UFC rules, it's a way of training, MMA competitions are one aspect, and one that most will never compete in.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have said it before and I will say it again, unless the guy you are facing has the ability to, and very possibly may, Kill you pressure testing is no better a gauge than anything else.

MMA, pressure testing, Sports MA, Traditional MA are all just training and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. There are no bad martial arts just the occasional bad martial artists whether that be skill or attitude.

Bottom line tough is tough not matter what you train or if you train.

And the marine ducking bullets, getting in hand to hand with a real enemy... now that is pressure testing.

If there are rules involved, you still have no idea how you will really respond. And for that matter you can never know how you will really respond because no 2 fights are alike. So you won in the ring, you beat the guy with a knife and the guy with the club was no problem. But what about the next guy with a knife or a club or for that matter a gun. If anyone thinks that pressure testing will prepare you for these better than any other type of training…good luck.

 

[RoninPimp]

I have said it before and I will say it again, unless the guy you are facing has the ability to, and very possibly may, Kill you pressure testing is no better a gauge than anything else.

-Excuse me a second while I pick my chin off the floor. So unless I'm fighting to the death in training, there's no benefit to it? You can't possibly be serious.

 

[cfr]

I would say where I train is a happy medium between "sport" and the "deadly techniques styles" and I really dig it. However, it always shocks me though how dumb people think MMA guys are. This argument has been had over and over. Do you really think the guys that train for MMA arent smart enough to poke your eye out or bight you if you jump them on the street? Those MMA guys are used the aredeniline and uncooperative opponents that others simply arent, probably better enabling them to take on more than 1 opponent. Many arguements in favor of sport styles can be found here:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

One of my favorite paragraphs is:

Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around. "Be like water…then just add dirt." Luis (El Che) Guitierez - 3-12-2000

Despite what Ive written I do see the shortcomings in MMA training. I just think that too many people think "style vs style". The "on paper techniques". My style has these techs, yours has those. Do you really think MMA guys would be bound to those rules if you were trying to hurt one of their loved ones?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I would say where I train is a happy medium between "sport" and the "deadly techniques styles" and I really dig it. However, it always shocks me though how dumb people think MMA guys are. This argument has been had over and over. Do you really think the guys that train for MMA arent smart enough to poke your eye out or bight you if you jump them on the street? Those MMA guys are used the aredeniline and uncooperative opponents that others simply arent, probably better enabling them to take on more than 1 opponent. Many arguements in favor of sport styles can be found here:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

One of my favorite paragraphs is:

Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around. "Be like water…then just add dirt." Luis (El Che) Guitierez - 3-12-2000

Despite what Ive written I do see the shortcomings in MMA training. I just think that too many people think "style vs style". The "on paper techniques". My style has these techs, yours has those. Do you really think MMA guys would be bound to those rules if you were trying to hurt one of their loved ones?

Well said. I've just started crosstraining in BJJ. Several of the guys I work out with do train for NHB competitions. They also train in self defense techniques on a regular basis. Only before a fight will they not train in that aspect.

Jeff

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Well said. I've just started crosstraining in BJJ. Several of the guys I work out with do train for NHB competitions. They also train in self defense techniques on a regular basis. Only before a fight will they not train in that aspect.

Jeff

Would that be because the self defense techniques are usually holds that are bared in the "NHB" competitions, and once you get going, you tend to go on autopilot and fight like you've been trained?

Which is why the patty-cake player who always pulls his punches, who is used to going light with his partners, who always stops shy of that sweet spot (so as to not hurt anyone) when confronted in the street ends up in a world of hurt.

Train for sports = fight for sports.
Train for the street = fighting for the street.
Train for war = real war.

As I said, nothing wrong with sport fighting. It's fun to watch. I just don't have any delusions that Mr. UFC is street-fight capable.

 

[RoninPimp]

Would that be because the self defense techniques are usually holds that are bared in the "NHB" competitions, and once you get going, you tend to go on autopilot and fight like you've been trained?

Which is why the patty-cake player who always pulls his punches, who is used to going light with his partners, who always stops shy of that sweet spot (so as to not hurt anyone) when confronted in the street ends up in a world of hurt.

Train for sports = fight for sports.
Train for the street = fighting for the street.
Train for war = real war.

As I said, nothing wrong with sport fighting. It's fun to watch. I just don't have any delusions that Mr. UFC is street-fight capable.

-So how does one train for the str33t?

 

[green meanie]

I would say where I train is a happy medium between "sport" and the "deadly techniques styles" and I really dig it. However, it always shocks me though how dumb people think MMA guys are. This argument has been had over and over. Do you really think the guys that train for MMA arent smart enough to poke your eye out or bight you if you jump them on the street? Those MMA guys are used the aredeniline and uncooperative opponents that others simply arent, probably better enabling them to take on more than 1 opponent. Many arguements in favor of sport styles can be found here:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

One of my favorite paragraphs is:

Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around. "Be like water…then just add dirt." Luis (El Che) Guitierez - 3-12-2000

Despite what Ive written I do see the shortcomings in MMA training. I just think that too many people think "style vs style". The "on paper techniques". My style has these techs, yours has those. Do you really think MMA guys would be bound to those rules if you were trying to hurt one of their loved ones?

No doubt. Well said!

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-Excuse me a second while I pick my chin off the floor. So unless I'm fighting to the death in training, there's no benefit to it? You can't possibly be serious.

Yes, I am.

MMA is not Self Defense training. It's training for a sport competition.
Pro Boxing is a sport, not a self defense art.
Olympic TKD is a sport, not a combat art.
Most martial artists play safe in the school, and condition themselves to hold back. This hurts them when they go on autopilot. You fight as you train.

In a fight, the rule is survive.
In NHB fights it is a long document, worded and enforced so that both fighters live to fight again, intact.
On the street, at the front, the only rule is to come back alive and intact, no matter what you do to the other guy.

Kendo is not sword combat.
WEKAF is not stick combat or sword fighting.
Fencing is not a battlefield art.
SCA Padded stick and carpet armour is not a real sword fight.
The UFC/NHB fight is not a substitute for a street fight.

The only way to know if your **** works, is actual, real world application. The more "rules" you add to the mix, the further from reality and therefore the less valuable the test is, from a real world perspective.

Ford doesn't run a computer simulation, they smash cars up. From every angle, at every speed. They -destroy- cars to test them. They don't do it so that they can reuse it, or just make a little ding. The make em go boom. Computer manufacturers boil, fry, freeze, throw, fling, mash, smash and crash things, to see just how far they can push them. They don't put little rubber safety boots on them and only wack things from the side. The same is true in defense arts.

Traditional arts such as Karate, Arnis, Kung Fu, etc, when learned from a qualified instructor, are based on techniques that -have- been battlefield tested. The mix-n-matcher who makes up his own fart is not that guy. Techniques that have been battle tested and refined do not need to be "tested", only learned, and integrated into your automatic response system. It is then your responsibility to pull it off right when your *** is on the line.

See, regardless on if you are a big macho sweaty UFC jock, or a skinny little Wing Chun Dummy, the only real question is: When I need to pull it off, is it going to work for me?

You can go so far in practice, sparring and competition. But none of these, nor any "limited to the safe stuff" testing is a substitute for "reality". Reality is not an MTY show, and anyone who believes that way is simply put, a fool who will someday be hurting bad, when someone doesn't stop the fight after they tap out and cry uncle.

 

[cfr]

Would that be because the self defense techniques are usually holds that are bared in the "NHB" competitions, and once you get going, you tend to go on autopilot and fight like you've been trained?

Which is why the patty-cake player who always pulls his punches, who is used to going light with his partners, who always stops shy of that sweet spot (so as to not hurt anyone) when confronted in the street ends up in a world of hurt.

Train for sports = fight for sports.
Train for the street = fighting for the street.
Train for war = real war.

As I said, nothing wrong with sport fighting. It's fun to watch. I just don't have any delusions that Mr. UFC is street-fight capable.

This being said, could you please point me to the school that has me:

1; Really poking people in the eyes/ biting/ kicking to the groin/ etc.
2; Fighting against a real knife and not get cut.
3; Fighting against multiple opponents that are really trying to hurt me.


After all, that must be the only way to really train for the street according to what you've described here, right? A school with . No "Tap outs". No TKO's. No "decisions" or "disqualifications.". Per what you've listed here, it would appear thats the only way to train for the street.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Well said. I've just started crosstraining in BJJ. Several of the guys I work out with do train for NHB competitions. They also train in self defense techniques on a regular basis. Only before a fight will they not train in that aspect.

Jeff

Jeff - Just so we're clear, I'm in agreement with you. :cheers:

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

-So how does one train for the str33t?

Talk to guys like Hoch Hochheim, Mark Hatmaker, Jim McCann and Tim Tackett. They train people to survive, not just win a match.

 

[cfr]

The only way to know if your **** works, is actual, real world application. The more "rules" you add to the mix, the further from reality and therefore the less valuable the test is, from a real world perspective.

This being said, you have no idea if your style works or not, do you? That is unless you train in the methods I listed above. (biting, real weapons, multiple opps really trying to hurt you, etc.)

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

This being said, could you please point me to the school that has me:

1; Really poking people in the eyes/ biting/ kicking to the groin/ etc.
2; Fighting against a real knife and not get cut.
3; Fighting against multiple opponents that are really trying to hurt me.


After all, that must be the only way to really train for the street according to what you've described here, right? A school with . No "Tap outs". No TKO's. No "decisions" or "disqualifications.". Per what you've listed here, it would appear thats the only way to train for the street.

As someone, I believe Andrew said, there are ways to train for that safely. A quality instructor has the tools and knowledge to do so.

Gun disarms - use paint ball guns (with proper eye protection and the guns chronoed). Hurts like a SOB up close. Safe, but immediate feedback.

Knife work - use a hard rubber or dull metal trainer. You feel it, you'd be cut. You don't have to train with live steel, but as if it were live steel.

Multiple opponents - realize that if they clinch you, it's a boot party and your head is the dance floor. Work on divide, separate, avoid techniques. Yes, running like hell is a valid self defense technique.

Eyes, Groin, etc - Goggles, RedMan suits, etc. The cops don't play patty cake, the marines sure don't. Why should you?

Am I making sense here?

In the end, you can train for most situations. But, until you need to really use it, not just 'test with rules', no one knows for certain. Thats the pucker factor. When there is no tap backs, time outs, or DQ's.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

This being said, you have no idea if your style works or not, do you? That is unless you train in the methods I listed above. (biting, real weapons, multiple opps really trying to hurt you, etc.)

My style works.

I'm still here.

Last fight wore out a pair of nikes, and ended up with a black eye and damn sore jaw. Left an impression on my opponent. He tasted awful btw. It's interesting how someone will often let you go when in a fight, you grab their groin and purr at them.