drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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MMA "Fouls"
- Thread starter TMA17
- Start date
I've seen a few that would have changed the fight if there wasn't a reprieve. I've also seen some that had no noticeable effect.
Some of these might fit the bill... I dare you not to laugh
I couldn't find it... but I remember one fight in UFC where the guy got kicked in the groin, and they brought out a bucket for him toss his cookies into... after the 5 minutes recovery time, he won the fight. I am not quite sure he would have won, without stopping the action for the recovery period. Many of the recipients in the above videos don't look like they would be at 100%, if the fight were allowed to continue without the break and recovery period.
I thought I would circle back here. At the beginning of the thread, I asked some questions about how things might change, if there were no rules. I got some great answers, especially the one from Tony. I have been processing the information here, and have reached some conclusions that I thought I would run by the group here... maybe get some more feed back.
First, I think that when we look at the early fights, with less rules, we need to remember that many of those fighters were not skilled enough, to have the opportunity to apply some of the now illegal tactics. A specific example would be take down defense. Since they couldn't stop the first take down, they were never in position to apply the illegal attacks. Things have changed now, and most fighters have a decent take down defense.
I still think the structure of the fight would change. I don't believe we would see long periods where one guy has the other pressed against the fence, while he is bent over, hips high, trying to get both legs or ankles. Without the rules, I think strikes, and elbows to the back of the head, neck and spine would be effective enough to make that a bad position to hang out in. I think we would see people shoot for the take down, and either get it or switch to something else right away... rather than leave their back exposed for long periods of time.
I think Tony is right, that what the fighters train currently, already covers those illegal moves. If anything, it would be more important to get the details right, because sloppy techniques would have more risk. However, any change in the training, would only need to be about the importance of certain details, already being trained.
So, in the end, I think that some fights may have a different pace. But, what gets trained would stay mostly the same. We might even see less sloppy take down attempts, in favor of better set up and better executed shots. I think that what is being trained today, is sufficient to deal with the illegal moves as well.
First, I think that when we look at the early fights, with less rules, we need to remember that many of those fighters were not skilled enough, to have the opportunity to apply some of the now illegal tactics. A specific example would be take down defense. Since they couldn't stop the first take down, they were never in position to apply the illegal attacks. Things have changed now, and most fighters have a decent take down defense.
I still think the structure of the fight would change. I don't believe we would see long periods where one guy has the other pressed against the fence, while he is bent over, hips high, trying to get both legs or ankles. Without the rules, I think strikes, and elbows to the back of the head, neck and spine would be effective enough to make that a bad position to hang out in. I think we would see people shoot for the take down, and either get it or switch to something else right away... rather than leave their back exposed for long periods of time.
I think Tony is right, that what the fighters train currently, already covers those illegal moves. If anything, it would be more important to get the details right, because sloppy techniques would have more risk. However, any change in the training, would only need to be about the importance of certain details, already being trained.
So, in the end, I think that some fights may have a different pace. But, what gets trained would stay mostly the same. We might even see less sloppy take down attempts, in favor of better set up and better executed shots. I think that what is being trained today, is sufficient to deal with the illegal moves as well.
Yeah, one of the fighters at my gym (who I helped prep for a fight recently) relies on that tactic a lot. If elbows to the back of the spine were allowed, he would definitely not spend so much time in that position.
Why?
The other example would be eye gouging. This has always been illegal. In the early years of MMA, the TMA guys were ridiculed about their deadly eye gouge techniques. However, we have seen now that accidental eye pokes have had such an effect, that they just changed the rules about it. Just looking a the effect that the accidental eye pokes sometimes have... leads me to think that if they were legal, they would be used more and could change the outcome of matches very suddenly. (we would also have a lot of fighters that couldn't see as well... )
I am not advocating making these things legal, as we do need to consider fighter safety. But, I have wondered about how these things would change fights. At this point, I think they would change how the fights progressed.. But, I would like to hear the opinions of the folks here that have much more MMA experience than I. (that really doesn't take too much
Thanks in advance. (And hopefully this comes across as me looking to learn and possibly adjust my way of thinking and not so much as me trying to start an argument.)
1. There were no disqualifying rules in the early UFC's, so a TMA fighter could have eye gouged Royce Gracie to win it all....which they did and failed miserably. They eye gouged and also bit Gracie, in trying to get out holds. That's why you see Gracie trying to break their arms off and not letting them go after they're seen tapping furiously and the Ref having to jump in and prying Gracie off. Same deal, when you see Gracie not letting go of choke holds. Good for Gracie. They're just very lucky that this wasn't in Brazil, behind closed doors.
2. When fighters are fighting for lots of money and world wide fame, they should always cry over everything.....including micro grazes to their nutsack or slight eye scrapes and just about everything else that's illegal, b/c they're all justified....even if it didn't cause much damage or hardly any. Because a lot of $$$$ is on the line and can be huge advantages, ie. causing their opponent to be scared to strike near there after that.....as 1 point deduction in a 3 or 5 round fight is huge. Worse = DQ.
3. In the streets, I don't think that poking a trained killer in the eye is going to stop them....what's an eye poke really? It's just a jab with the finger(s) out. Think Boxers don't know how to handle things thrown at their face? And who's going to be faster, more precise and more powerful at it?
JR 137
Grandmaster
I got accidentally poked in the eye plenty on times in wrestling. It stopped me EVERY time when I was in a standing/neutral position. I needed some time before I could open my eyes, let alone see straight. If those were fights without a referee to stop and give me a few minutes, I’d be done. Not from the eye poke, but from the immediate follow up. Again, these instances I’m referring to where incidental eye pokes while standing.
None of that means it’s a reliable technique to connect with. That also doesn’t mean that I’d let go of a choke, joint lock, etc. that was already sunk in. I’ve been eye gouged when I’ve had people on their back. And I had my nuts squeezed intentionally (I wasn’t wearing a cup). It never stopped me from getting the pin.
Edit: with the nut squeeze, time ran out in the period before I could pin him, but I didn’t lose any control. So next period, I got some payback. I slammed him and got a warning. Then I slammed him again and gave up a point. Then I slammed him again and gave up another point. The next penalty point would’ve been a DQ, so I pinned him using the most painful pinning combination I knew - double bar stack. He was hurting far more than I was at the end. When I shook his coach’s hand at the end of the match, he smiled and said good job in a way that told me his guy got what he deserved.
Yeah, but that's mostly because you weren't expecting to get eye poked in wrestling, although possible. And you were in a safe place with witnesses, so it's expected that you'd take advantage of the rules. However in a street fight, you should be expecting anything, especially expecting the really high chances of your attacker, being really sucky at fighting and can't throw **** in comparison to a trained fighter. And if some fat slob did manage to eye poke you, then I'd question your Boxing abilities such as head movement, parrying, countering, etc.
Now if you did happen to run into some some grand master of chopsocky in the street and somehow managed to piss him off so badly that he's going full ninja eye strikes on you.....then I think that you'd still keep on fighting while squinting.....I have that much faith in you. Like when Vitor Belfort eye gouged Randy Coutoure and won the belt from him, Coutoure quit & lose because if he chose to continue and fight with double vision, it would have been lost of belt by devastating KO and ****'ed up for 6-12 months or worse. Coutoure had a choice, but not in the streets where he'd have to fight.
That's a good story. I bet the Ref was giving you some slack too if his own coach was on your side.
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JR 137
Grandmaster
I could’ve kept going after the eye pokes. That’s not the issue. The issue is if it were an actual fight, my uncontrolled response would give an opponent an easy opening before I’d have time to recover. 1 second could easily get you knocked out, grounded and pounded, etc.Yeah, but that's mostly because you weren't expecting to get eye poked in wrestling, although possible. And you were in a safe place with witnesses, so it's expected that you'd take advantage of the rules. However in a street fight, you should be expecting anything, especially expecting the really high chances of your attacker, being really sucky at fighting and can't throw **** in comparison to a trained fighter. And if some fat slob did manage to eye poke you, then I'd question your Boxing abilities such as head movement, parrying, countering, etc.
Now if you did happen to run into some some grand master of chopsocky in the street and somehow managed to piss him off so badly that he's going full ninja eye strikes on you.....then I think that you'd still keep on fighting while squinting.....I have that much faith in you. Like when Vitor Belfort eye gouged Randy Coutoure and won the belt from him, Coutoure quit & lose because if he chose to continue and fight with double vision, it would have been lost of belt by devastating KO and ****'ed up for 6-12 months or worse. Coutoure had a choice, but not in the streets where he'd have to fight.
That's a good story. I bet the Ref was giving you some slack too if his own coach was on your side.
But the point is that it’s not something that’ll land very easily nor reliably. An eye poke in a fight is most likely going to be unintentional while standing and grappling rather than thrown and landed like a jab. That wrestling range where I got poked all those times is also a far more likely range in an actual fight than a dancing around boxing or kicking range is.
The eye poke will stop you for a second. An all out eye gouge can get you pretty good unless you’re in full control. If I’ve got you in an arm bar and you somehow gouge with the other hand, I’ll have enough time to snap the arm before I let go and address the eye gouge. Same for if you manage to bite me or squeeze my sack. After I snap your arm, chances are pretty high you’re going to be rolling around in pain rather than still coming at me.
And yeah, someone’s typically not going to land an eye poke thrown like a jab. It might land, but it’ll miss my eye. Unless they’re really, really good at it, it’s set up right, and other stuff is going on where I’m not addressing other stuff and it’s snuck in.
A groin kick isn’t highly reliable to land. An eye poke is far less reliable. Unless you’re Larry, Curly, or Moe, then all bets are off. There’s an exception to every rule
You would have no choice but to fight, which was my point.....if you get KO'ed then that's that. Which is why an experienced fighter who've fought in the ring/cage is going to fare much better than TMA's who don't fight nor often spar for full KO's. There's a certain mentality that Sports Fighters have that many TMA's who never fought before, don't understand, which is, a sports fight is still a fight using the same, full power to kill the other person. Just nobody dies b/c the Ref stops it. But everything before that, both fighters are throwing everything they have into trying to KO the other, which is the prelude to killing someone. In the streets, if you wanted to kill someone who you just KO'ed, all it takes is a few head stomps on someone who's unconscious, maybe just 1 or 2.
Yeah, it's funny how people think that they can eye gouge to get out of a locked armbar. The pain of the elbow popping is horrific. Usually you can just tuck your head to get away from gouging fingers. And people who thinks biting will help, are really delusional. The human bite is not really that strong. It wouldn't even hurt that much during an adrenaline rush. I'd be more worry about a nasty infection the next day, more than anything.
I have heard a
- Preying mantis teacher taught his beginner students those 8 legal striking areas. He taught his advance students those 8 illegal striking areas.
- Judo teacher taught his beginner students all legal techniques. He taught his advance students all illegal techniques.
The
- legal technique is good for sport.
- illegal technique is good for combat.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I trained bare knuckle karate in my 20s. I wrestled from grade 4-12. You’re preaching to the choir about training against resistance and combat sports (not tap point fighting).
Above all, that stuff teaches you you’re not made out of glass and to take a hit/pain and keep going. It builds mental and physical toughness like nothing else will. I’m 42 now, so that stuff’s behind me. No realistic need for it.
I know that. I wasn't talking about you, just in general.
Aren't "illegal techniques" in Judo, just regular Jujutsu?
The Praying Mantis "advanced students" needed someone to teach them how to kick another dude in the nutsack?
hoshin1600
Senior Master
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im not saying that biting someone will stop them from snapping your arm but a human bite is a lot stronger than you think.
Man bites off golfer's finger to the knuckle at Massachusetts golf club
Man accused of biting off golfer's finger due in court
That's really not that impressive of a bite, I mean I should hope that humans can bite to the bone of a finger where there's not that much flesh before it gets to the bone.
While the situation that we were debating about was; when a trained BJJ'er gets someone in an armbar and they try to bite their way out. I think the biters elbow getting popped is going to hurt a lot more and he'll scream in pain and let go of the bite.
Here's a video of a fat guy who bit off another dude's ear clean off, worse than Tyson on Holyfield.....and it didn't even phased him one bit as he was ready & willing to keep on fighting.
It's a weird thing. I can take repeated blunt force trauma to my head and body and not tap; to the point of getting knocked the **** out. But an armbar that's locked and about to snap my elbow off, I will tap and fast. Maybe it's also the realization that it can be the end to my lifelong hobby as an MA'ist, especially also being a gym rat....so it would suck real bad to go from working out 4-6 days a week to 0, for the next year or more.
I've been bitten by 3 german shepherds (on 3 diff. occasions) and remember more fear than pain. And they were nasty punctures too. Nut kicks certainly work, but if you're in the streets, you have no choice but to keep fighting......and the Sports Fighter is going to be much more resilient than the non-fighting, Martial Artist.
The new students have not started to compete in tournament yet but the advanced students have.
Here is a Chinese wrestler teacher taught his advance students how to use illegal techniques to injury their opponents in tournament. It's in Chinese but you can understand by watching the teacher's action in the clip.
1. Put pressure on opponent's wrist joint.
2. Pull opponent's face into your elbow.
3. Put metal edge under shoes.
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