Loose hand technique approaches in Wing Chun

Yeung

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Loose hand or“san shou散手” is generally refers to the application of short individual applications or encounters or variations.

Gulo Wing Chun is mainly based on loose hand techniques. In my encounter with this system in the 70s in Hong Kong, it has 18 loose hand techniques applicable to training, two person practice, wooden dummy, and separate sets of double knives and three and half point pole. It was developed by Leung Jan (Liang Zan 1826-1901) when he returned to his ancestral home in Gulo when he retired and taught his relatives who were well versed in southern martial arts for a few years before his death. It seems to me that there are also development of routines in recent years.

Guangzhou Wing Chun or Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun or Sum Nung Wing Chun has 12 loose hand techniques for beginner was developed by Sum Nung (Cen Neng 1926-2002) in the 50s to train union workers to fight. His reason for such development was to train strong manual workers to fight in a short time and was proven to be workable.

The Yip Man system seems to be focus on teaching the sticking hand applications and variations with proficient students on a one to one basis. However, the later development seems to be following the other systems’ loose hand techniques approaches for beginners and people with an external background.
 

wckf92

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Were you trained in the loose hand method?
 

geezer

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This concept of short paired-drill sequences to teach and reinforce proper reactions and technique application is a widespread practice, and not just in Wing Chun.

In the branch of Yip Man VT I train, a series of such drills was developed more recently (starting in the 1970s and '80s) using the term "lat sau" (also implying a "free hand" practice). At the beginning and intermediate level there are some 6 or more of these lat-sau cycles (depending on the sub-branch of the lineage) which are then gradually merged with more advanced chi-sau drills.

At the final stage, lat-sau opened up and flow very fast and freely almost like light sparring (guo-sau), --or perhaps more like pad-work in boxing since typically one person will lead (like a coach) and the other will respond.

The main difference between the lat-sau and chi sau is that in lat sau you are not fully connected to your training partner as you are in chi-sau, so it adds that important element to the training. Also I believe it significantly speeds up practical skill acquisition. According to the Gu-lo folks I've met here on MT, Leung Jan must have felt the same way.
 

Bino TWT

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We also utilize the Lat Sao training platform, which was filtered down from Leung Ting to Kieth Kernspecht, and KK made an entire curriculum based around it.
 

geezer

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We also utilize the Lat Sao training platform, which was filtered down from Leung Ting to Kieth Kernspecht, and KK made an entire curriculum based around it.

Bino, Welcome to the forum. Yeah, the lat sau I got from Leung Ting was much less involved and organized than the extensive curriculum developed by Keith Kernscpecht. We were first exposed to that when some of the German EWTO guys came to America in the mid to late '80s.

BTW who do you train with in Houston?
 

Bino TWT

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I began my training WT training under Si-Fu Alex Wallenwein, who was a student of Kernspecht (and also traveled with LT during his American tours). After a nasty political fallout, I left that organization and am now under Si-Fu Bradford Wholner, who is currently in Mexico, under Sifu Tam Yiu Ming. So I am well versed in both the EWTO and the Hong Kong IWTA side of WT. There's a very intricate breakdown of all of this on my website.
 

Bino TWT

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Glad to be here, geezer. I figured I should branch out from all of the FB forums I frequent and see what else is out there...
 

KPM

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I began my training WT training under Si-Fu Alex Wallenwein, who was a student of Kernspecht (and also traveled with LT during his American tours). After a nasty political fallout, I left that organization and am now under Si-Fu Bradford Wholner, who is currently in Mexico, under Sifu Tam Yiu Ming. So I am well versed in both the EWTO and the Hong Kong IWTA side of WT. There's a very intricate breakdown of all of this on my website.

Hey Jason! Welcome to the forum! :)
 

geezer

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Welcome to MT
I began my training WT training under Si-Fu Alex Wallenwein, who was a student of Kernspecht (and also traveled with LT during his American tours). After a nasty political fallout, I left that organization and am now under Si-Fu Bradford Wholner, who is currently in Mexico, under Sifu Tam Yiu Ming. So I am well versed in both the EWTO and the Hong Kong IWTA side of WT. There's a very intricate breakdown of all of this on my website.

Jason, I found you on facebook -- the guy with the awesome beard, right? But I didn't find your webpage with the breakdown you mentioned above. Maybe you could post a link?

Anyway, Wing Chun politics really sucks. Especially in WT. And it's a shame since it drives people apart when they should be sharing. So that's why this is such a good place. I hope you continue to post. :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Loose hand or“san shou散手” is generally refers to the application of short individual applications or encounters or variations.
It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose. This way our next generate can understand it's possible that "training can be the same as fighting".
 

geezer

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It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose. This way our next generate can understand it's possible that "training can be the same as fighting".

Nah, we've got enough forms. The "Lat-Sau" we do in WT/VT all comes from the forms anyway. It's the fact that you can practice it in two man drills, and then mix it up that makes it come alive as a training method.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Nah, we've got enough forms. The "Lat-Sau" we do in WT/VT all comes from the forms anyway. It's the fact that you can practice it in two man drills, and then mix it up that makes it come alive as a training method.
It depends how many "san shou 散手" techniques that you can collect. It will be hard to remember when that number can reach to 60, or even 80.

One Karate school when they test their black belt, they require their black belt students to perform 50 different self-defense techniques. They have to physical remember number 1, 2, ..., 49, 50. I suggested the instructor to make a 50 moves solo form, or even 2 men form. After that their students had easier time to take their test.

I have created a 84 moves long fist "san shou 散手" form. It's a quite challenge task.
 

wckf92

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One Karate school when they test their black belt, they require their black belt students to perform 50 different self-defense techniques. They have to physical remember number 1, 2, ..., 49, 50. I suggested the instructor to make a 50 moves solo form, or even 2 men form.

Kind of reminds me of Kenpo/Kempo...lots and lots of memorized one-step's and etc...
 

wckf92

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It's a good idea to collect all the WC "san shou 散手" and link into a "WC 4th form" for teaching/learning and recording purpose..

But then, everyone's "4th form" would be different! :eek:
hahahahaha
 

Danny T

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Jason, I found you on facebook -- the guy with the awesome beard, right? But I didn't find your webpage with the breakdown you mentioned above. Maybe you could post a link?

Anyway, Wing Chun politics really sucks. Especially in WT. And it's a shame since it drives people apart when they should be sharing. So that's why this is such a good place. I hope you continue to post. :)
geezer I believe this is the page with the lineage breakdown Jason is talking about.
Lineage
 

Bino TWT

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Yes, thanks Danny, that is correct. And yes Geezer, the beard is pretty awesome lol.
 

Bino TWT

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Lat Sao isn't a form, but a training platform. When we train new techniques (or for you WT guys, when we learn a new technique in a Chi Sao section, for instance), we have to make the technique work from all platforms. So if we learn a new Chi Sao technique, we must also train it in Jut Chuen, and also Lat Sao. "Lat Sao" holds multiple meanings for us, but the technique must still be applied to all of these meanings.
1. Free Hand sparring under pressure (sometimes refered to Gor Sao , San da, or San Shou in other lineages)
2. zero contact range, meaning the technique must be applied against an attack from Bai Jong/guard position
3. Lat Sao program training platform (drill)

Here's some more from my site regarding the different training methods of the WT lineage:

Lat Sao - "Free Hand": Lat Sao is often used to refer to sparring (along with San Da and Gor Sao). In our lineage, the EWTO Lat Sao program is a proprietary training platform created by GM Kernspecht to train techniques and build one level to the next throughout the student grades. This platform interchanges with other levels throughout the curriculum, and you can flow in and out of the programs, allowing high and low level students to train together effectively. Lat Sao is a safe way to drill techniques and responses, and timing and distance. One bonus of this platform is that it is generally initiated from no contact, so the practitioner can learn to bridge the gap and intercept and counter incoming attacks.

Jut Chuen - "Sinking/Shocking & Threading": Sometimes called Laap Kuen or Laap Da (pull/fist or pull/strike), this is similar to the Laap Sao/Laap Da drill done by other Wing Chun lineages, but mechanically different in function. This is a training platform used to practice free flow of techniques and counters, to learn to control the range and apply forward intent to your movements, bridging the gap between Lat Sao and Chi Sao. Jut Chuen is the primary training platform used by the Hong Kong/IWTA side of the WT lineage, as opposed to the Lat Sao program used by the EWTO.
 
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geezer

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Great explanation, Jason. I remember when the first EWTO guys brought the lat-sau curriculum over to the States --Thomas Dolniski, Emin, and my si-dai Alex, who (although less experienced than some of the others like Emin), did bai-si and was taken on as todai by my Sifu, Leung Ting.

The EWTO training curriculum added a lot. In fact I currently study with my former si-dai in the WT system who reaped the benefit of having both LT's instruction and EWTO training. He's my "junior" in seniority, but having studied extensively with both LT and the EWTO, achieved a higher level of skill than I. When he left the WT organization, I chose to continue training with him ...which got me "excommunicated" as well.

Unfortunately, the same politics and business model that drove me from WT keeps reasserting itself, even in the "rebel" organizations as you found out. And, that may be a problem I face again. Especially since I'm a really curious guy and like to learn from different people. That doesn't sit well with the old-school WT mindset.

Now getting back on topic, I note that what Sifu LT himself always referred to lap-sau cycle, was re-named jut-chuen-da cycle by the EWTO. This seems to be a more accurate description of the movement sequence and effectively distinguishes it from the differently executed versions of lap-sau used in other Yip Man branches. Regardless, I tend to use the old terms as I was taught them. YGKYM instead of "IRAS", etc. I still jumble up the chi-sau sections too, as I learn, or try to learn, different versions. Confusing. ...Oh well, in the end it's not the drills that matter, but how you move ...or what you can do.
 
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