The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement

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JowGaWolf

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Back to the subject. The infinite symbol can be a good power generation method. When you swing your arm in one direction (release), toward the end, your releasing can be a compressing. You then swing your arm to the opposite direction (release).

Application: You hook punch at your opponent's head. Your opponent dodges under your hook. You change your hook into a horizontal hammer fist and still punch his head.

View attachment 27673
Earlier there was talk about balancing power and speed. This is what I would consider blending of power and speed. The first strike has no end and the second strike has no beginning. One motion helps to generate the power and speed of another motion
 

dvcochran

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Sorry, bad phrasing and messy wording on my part. I should specify, I really mean applying impulse to the target. I simplified it as pushing as in if I hit something and cause it to move then it's more of a push which will deal less damage than a penetrating strike which happens from pressure. Penetration vs. a push when striking basically. If I hit a target and it moves in the same direction as I am hitting it, effectively increasing the distance and lowering the impact force as impact is measured by dividing KE over distance. This is an increase in impulse (change in momentum) that negatively affects the impact force by increasing the distance. Conversely if I can keep a high impact force spread over a small area I will increase the pressure and penetrate deeper causing more damage. I didn't mean to say that I "push" less with my strike but rather I am trying to not use my strike as a push. Sloppy wording on my part. It's all semantics, but I believe that [trying] to understand the the biomechanics/physics behind martial techniques can give a better understanding of how to improve them but in order to do that you need to first know what it is you are trying to change which is why I pointed out the semantics of "power" actually referring to KE. It's pedantic, I know, but hey some people enjoy the pedantry.

I agree with you that there is not one formula to consider but many and it is very messy. Too many variables. Kinematic studies usually just look at after the movements already started to keep things simpler and it's still complicated but fun to consider.
Now we are getting somewhere. Well said.
I agree with Flying Crane that most of the time we just need to hit something until we figure out how to do it, or how to do it better. But as we learn we should also learn how to be efficient. I feel everything you have mentioned encompasses this.
If a person understands physics, it makes sense to talk to them in 'physics speak'. If they understand Tinker Toys, speak to them in that form. Generally, I try to speak to someone as I am being spoken to. At least I try to start that way unless a precedence has already been set. Being able to put the cookies where everyone can understand them is truly a talent; one I fail at regularly I feel.
I don't ever remember waxing into physics terms when teaching a MA's class but have gone into the same details we have in this thread many times in one on one or group conversations.
I like to think of it as a higher level of understanding about this MA's thing we do and love.
 
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J. Pickard

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While good karate follows the rules of physics, the rules of physics do not fully explain karate. There is more to it than quantitative principles:
100% disagree. Every single aspect of all legitimate martial arts are quantitative and can be explored and understood through the scientific method. Everything from the breathing, to the mechanics, and even that sense of serenity that comes from proper training can all be explained and explored through the scientific method
 

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100% disagree. Every single aspect of all legitimate martial arts are quantitative and can be explored and understood through the scientific method. Everything from the breathing, to the mechanics, and even that sense of serenity that comes from proper training can all be explained and explored through the scientific method
And yet the vast vast vast majority of folks lack the background in physics, biology, chemistry and likely some other topics, to do so. And we are able to discuss it quite adequately without doing so.
 

Hanzou

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Ah, people believing in magical martial arts. Eastern mysticism rears its ugly head once again.
 

J. Pickard

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And yet the vast vast vast majority of folks lack the background in physics, biology, chemistry and likely some other topics, to do so. And we are able to discuss it quite adequately without doing so.
Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.
For the most part yes. But I think it will have difficulty with things like the things like landing a strike at the same time another opponent strikes. Punches that are the striking the same area may register the same on the equipment but has a different out come when applied to a person.

I've seen scientists try to measure martial arts with science and get it totally wrong. Most of this error is due to them not understanding enough about the technique. They only see the impact they may not see the distraction that caused by the technique that makes the impact of the strike.

They usually only think. Hit that target as hard as you can.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Earlier there was talk about balancing power and speed. This is what I would consider blending of power and speed. The first strike has no end and the second strike has no beginning. One motion helps to generate the power and speed of another motion
One motion helps to generate the power and speed of another motion

- Back fist.
- Overhand.

https://i.postimg.cc/jdT2GHMd/my-3-rings-catch-the-moon.gif

- Spin back fist.
- Hook.

https://i.postimg.cc/MpLvCLP2/my-spin-back-fist.gif
 
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JowGaWolf

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In Jow Ga I often power larger movements with smaller movements. With my straight sword I will sometimes power a swing of the sword with two fingers. It works like a spark plug by powering the initial movement.
 

J. Pickard

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For the most part yes. But I think it will have difficulty with things like the things like landing a strike at the same time another opponent strikes. Punches that are the striking the same area may register the same on the equipment but has a different out come when applied to a person.

I've seen scientists try to measure martial arts with science and get it totally wrong. Most of this error is due to them not understanding enough about the technique. They only see the impact they may not see the distraction that caused by the technique that makes the impact of the strike.

They usually only think. Hit that target as hard as you can.
That depends on what they are trying to measure. Boxing and martial art kinesiology is actually a huge area of study to the point that some major universities have graduate studies dedicated to it. If you want to know how to hit harder i.e. higher impact force then that's what you focus your study on. If you want to know best areas to hit, then you focus on that. as far as timing a strike, that is purely reaction time and is something that can be trained and kinesiologist can study why/how reaction time works. Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.
 

dvcochran

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Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.
Dillman; now that is a word I have not seen in a long time.
Made me laugh.
 

isshinryuronin

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Everything in the martial arts is quantifiable in some way.
When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this? How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?

Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?

Judgement and reading the opponent is based on a variety of experiences and even more interpretations of them. After extensive studies (psychological and mathematical) a statistical model may be drawn for a large sample, but will not be reliable for any single person at any given time.

I have seen people with terrible form and inefficient body mechanics, but would be fearsome opponents as they were bat sh*t crazy. Science can explain the transmission of electro-chemical impulses in the brain, but cannot explain how or the method one uses their free will to express or execute their thoughts and actions.

The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them. IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics. To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.
 
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Flying Crane

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Oh for sure, you can discuss anything without completely understanding the science behind it. You can enjoy and benefit and even become very skilled in martial arts without knowing the biomechanics behind it. I [personal opinion] think some people can improve faster and gain a better understanding of the "why" in their art if they explore the science behind it even in a basic level. Additionally exploring martial arts from a scientific perspective can help weed out the frauds and Dillmans of the martial arts world and stop them from taking advantage of people by exposing them as shysters.
Ok, but when you start nit-picking the definition of power, as used in Physics, compared to how we are using it here in this discussion, I think it is moving in the direction of not useful.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Ah, people believing in magical martial arts. Eastern mysticism rears its ugly head once again.
I fail to see the difference between this and any sort of religion, fairy tale, myth, or old wives tales. Your statement is valid only so long as you dont engage in believing in these things. That being said, many people derive benefit from these things, no matter the substantive qualities or lack thereof.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Ok, but when you start nit-picking the definition of power, as used in Physics, compared to how we are using it here in this discussion, I think it is moving in the direction of not useful.
I agree with flying crane on this. Again, this discussion was about how each individual perceives and or expresses their personal experience when using the body to generate power or movement or whatever anyone chooses to call it. Pedantic discussion of jargon can be relegated to some other thread.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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When you throw a punch, will the opponent move straight in or back to block, or will they just cover up and cower? What is the formula for computing this? How does one quantify one's heart and fighting spirit that may vary depending on situation or emotional state at the time?

Doesn't one's spirit affect one's level of commitment in sparring/combat, and thus affect not only the choice of move, but the power put behind it? Is the opponent passive or aggressive and how does this affect one's action/reaction?

Judgement and reading the opponent is based on a variety of experiences and even more interpretations of them. After extensive studies (psychological and mathematical) a statistical model may be drawn for a large sample, but will not be reliable for any single person at any given time.

I have seen people with terrible form and inefficient body mechanics, but would be fearsome opponents as they were bat sh*t crazy. Science can explain the transmission of electro-chemical impulses in the brain, but cannot explain how or the method one uses their free will to express or execute their thoughts and actions.

The bottom line is that math can explain the physical mechanics of individual body movements and their optimum effects under a given set of criteria, but not how they are used or how one's spiritual bearing will affect them. IMO, these are variables outside the realm of physics. To think karate (and other MA) can be reduced to simple body mechanics has a very limited understanding of MA, combat, and life in general.
Furthermore, Physics is an incomplete science that grows and discovers regularly. To assert that we have all the answers due to our understanding of physics is simply the antithesis of science, and a rather rudimentary point of view
 
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