The Martial Responsibility...

[Littledragon]

As martial artists we are capable of defending our self with our years of knowledgeable training in the art of self-defense. Martial arts teaches one self-defense, self confidence, discipline, etc... Most can argue martial arts is a way of life and every thing we do is martial arts.

As a martial artist we carry many responsibilitie, we carry the burdon that we have such great hand to hand combat skills they must be restrained in certain situations.

Here is the big question is it a martial artists responsibility to come to the aid of one who is in trouble? If you see a women being raped or a robber with a knife in a store or an old lady being mugged is it the martial artists responsibility to come to their aid?

What is your opinion?

Tarek :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

I think if you see a woman being raped then it's any adult human's responsibility to come to their aid, irrespective of their previous training.


Otherwise, avoid violence, do not incite it.

 

[Littledragon]

I think if you see a woman being raped then it's any adult human's responsibility to come to their aid, irrespective of their previous training.


Otherwise, avoid violence, do not incite it.

Good advice. As a martial artist it is our responsibility to stay peacefull at all times, avoiding or preventing a fight from occuring is the true act of martial arts.
But on the other hand if that is unavoidable I thank God I know martial arts (lol).

Tarek

 

[terryl965]

Yes in my opion we must always help those in trouble, weather though MA or just to sit and talk it out with them. Mature indiviuals will always be able to make the right decission on weather they should interject or sit it out, in everyday life we all make decission weather to interject or how many times have you seen a couple arguing and helped, probaly not to many times but when you see the situation going the wrong direction then you may need to help. GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Littledragon]

Yes in my opion we must always help those in trouble, weather though MA or just to sit and talk it out with them. Mature indiviuals will always be able to make the right decission on weather they should interject or sit it out, in everyday life we all make decission weather to interject or how many times have you seen a couple arguing and helped, probaly not to many times but when you see the situation going the wrong direction then you may need to help. GOD BLESS AMERICA

We think alike!

Tarek

 

[Martial Tucker]

As martial artists we are capable of defending our self with our years of knowledgeable training in the art of self-defense. Martial arts teaches one self-defense, self confidence, discipline, etc... Most can argue martial arts is a way of life and every thing we do is martial arts.

As a martial artist we carry many responsibilitie, we carry the burdon that we have such great hand to hand combat skills they must be restrained in certain situations.

Here is the big question is it a martial artists responsibility to come to the aid of one who is in trouble? If you see a women being raped or a robber with a knife in a store or an old lady being mugged is it the martial artists responsibility to come to their aid?

What is your opinion?

Tarek :asian:

My opinion is summed up in the 2nd quote below in my "signature".

 

[Littledragon]

My opinion is summed up in the 2nd quote below in my "signature".

Great quote I like it and I like your thinking.

 

[Eldritch Knight]

I'm going to have to say that this is largely an individual thing, based largely on each person's civic sense. Hopefully the mere knowledge that a martial artist is fully capable of killing someone is enough to dissuade them from using their abilities in all but the most extreme of situations.

As for helping a fellow human being? I've never been in that situation, but I know exactly what i'd do: I'd ask myself "if I was in the shoes of the victim, would I want help?". Attacking with lethal force is a serious thing, and I'm not willing to stake my future on a felony conviction unless I was sure that I was making sure that someone else's future doesn't get cut short.

 

[loki09789]

Martial artists have no more responsibility than any other citizen. Check your local use of force/deadly force laws in regards to third party intervention or ask local LEO/Court attorneys about the nuts and bolts of it. Good intentioned or not, if you cross the wrong line or make the wrong call:

(Girlfriend likes it rough and kinky in public, they were just arguing and it wasn't actually 'assault', or worse -she jumps on your back for hurting her 'honey' even though he was pounding the dooky out of her 2 seconds ago...)

You will be the one in jail, fined, civil court/sued....

Combine your right minds with right action (in accordance with the law) and you will avoid "right court".....

 

[Touch Of Death]

Martial artists have no more responsibility than any other citizen. Check your local use of force/deadly force laws in regards to third party intervention or ask local LEO/Court attorneys about the nuts and bolts of it. Good intentioned or not, if you cross the wrong line or make the wrong call:

(Girlfriend likes it rough and kinky in public, they were just arguing and it wasn't actually 'assault', or worse -she jumps on your back for hurting her 'honey' even though he was pounding the dooky out of her 2 seconds ago...)

You will be the one in jail, fined, civil court/sued....

Combine your right minds with right action (in accordance with the law) and you will avoid "right court".....

Thank you, unless your a cop, you aint a cop so I would think before becoming the local superhero of your neiborhood. 911 is usefull for martial artists as well as the general citizenry. Besides some people have an uncanny way of placing themselves in detrimental situations and rather than running around trying to save them your time would be better spent teaching children how to avoid becoming victims. :asian:
Sean

 

[DoxN4cer]

I agree, calling 911 and awaiting the police is a smarter way for "Joe Public" to go. There are a numer of things that could go against you if you were to respond. Ultimately, I would say acess the situation. If there are more of you than there are of the bad guys, you might consider scaring off the offenders. Be very cautious though. Hard core criminals like to carry hard core gear. Yes, I'm talking about firearms. Nobody is faster than a speeding bullet.

Unless you are a sworn public official with a radio and a weapon, just dial 911.

Tim Kashino

 

[Hanzo04]

i completely disagree. I think it is our place to defend the people that can't regardless of status. that's why we learn our system, to protect ourselves and others. i don't want to be that person known as shoulda, coulda, woulda but didn't. "Oh i saw the stabbing happen as clear as day, but i didn't want to go to jail for intervening, despite the fact that i'm a black belt." Bull! that's why other people teach regular people like me and you to defend themselves. it has nothing to do with being a superhero but defending life itself who ever it is. i wouldn't call the cops until the altercation was over.

personally i think this government gives criminals to much rights. too much technicalities. it's stupid.

 

[Littledragon]

i completely disagree. I think it is our place to defend the people that can't regardless of status. that's why we learn our system, to protect ourselves and others. i don't want to be that person known as shoulda, coulda, woulda but didn't. "Oh i saw the stabbing happen as clear as day, but i didn't want to go to jail for intervening, despite the fact that i'm a black belt." Bull! that's why other people teach regular people like me and you to defend themselves. it has nothing to do with being a superhero but defending life itself who ever it is. i wouldn't call the cops until the altercation was over.

personally i think this government gives criminals to much rights. too much technicalities. it's stupid.

I totally agree on what you have said.

 

[Touch Of Death]

i completely disagree. I think it is our place to defend the people that can't regardless of status. that's why we learn our system, to protect ourselves and others. i don't want to be that person known as shoulda, coulda, woulda but didn't. "Oh i saw the stabbing happen as clear as day, but i didn't want to go to jail for intervening, despite the fact that i'm a black belt." Bull! that's why other people teach regular people like me and you to defend themselves. it has nothing to do with being a superhero but defending life itself who ever it is. i wouldn't call the cops until the altercation was over.

personally i think this government gives criminals to much rights. too much technicalities. it's stupid.

Vigilanty justice will end you in jail, hospital, or the grave yard. I would not go to a Dojo that taught its kids to intervine on knife attacks. :asian:
Sean

 

[Flatlander]

Vigilanty justice will end you in jail, hospital, or the grave yard. I would not go to a Dojo that taught its kids to intervine on knife attacks. :asian:
Sean

Though I primarily agree with you here, I think that I define vigilante justice very differently than timely intervention. Obviously, there are a multitude of different situations that we could discuss, and it would be unwise for me to make a blanket statement on such a generalized topic, suffice it to say there would be scenarios in which I couldn't help but intervene.

I certainly agree that this mindset should not be taught to anyone in a dojo. It is a very personal descision. Having said that, I believe it to be a valuable exercise to contemplate the issue in a critical way. Ultimately, the most important aspect of the debate for me is the value I place on the lives of other people.

 

[MA-Caver]

As martial artists we are capable of defending our self with our years of knowledgeable training in the art of self-defense. Martial arts teaches one self-defense, self confidence, discipline, etc... Most can argue martial arts is a way of life and every thing we do is martial arts.

As a martial artist we carry many responsibilitie, we carry the burdon that we have such great hand to hand combat skills they must be restrained in certain situations.

Here is the big question is it a martial artists responsibility to come to the aid of one who is in trouble? If you see a women being raped or a robber with a knife in a store or an old lady being mugged is it the martial artists responsibility to come to their aid?

What is your opinion?

Tarek :asian:

Tarek, what you're asking is actually a moral and ethics question than anything else related to MA. As often quoted here it is up to the individual and their personal values more than what they've learned from MA and even then those are influenced by the takingstudying/living of MA's.
(Our) instructors generally pass along a good code of ethics while training, and 99.999% of the time they're aware of it because they themselves have been taught and that goes on back to a time when whomever first came over on the boat.
We still make the choice to act or not when we see something "wrong." That also depends upon our definition of the word "wrong" and what falls into that catagory. Our personal religious/spiritual beliefs make that determination more than our knowledge/skills in the MA's.
What we got going on inside of us is a lot more important than what's going on the outside.
Ed Parker Jr. at his recent seminar had something very interesting at his "closing" statements... something he obviously learned from his Dad (which was the topic of the seminar)...I'll have to paraphrase from memory,.
Mr. Parker said the answer lies in the Kenpo creed. Two words. After some wrong guesses one answered correctly and the two words were Principals and Honor. That is what you are defending. If you don't have (personal) definitions of those two words then what's there to defend?
Those two (words) help us (among other values) to decide to either watch a robbery or rape or murder or DO something about it. Martial Art skill(s) only give us the means.

 

[loki09789]

i completely disagree. I think it is our place to defend the people that can't regardless of status. that's why we learn our system, to protect ourselves and others. i don't want to be that person known as shoulda, coulda, woulda but didn't. "Oh i saw the stabbing happen as clear as day, but i didn't want to go to jail for intervening, despite the fact that i'm a black belt." Bull! that's why other people teach regular people like me and you to defend themselves. it has nothing to do with being a superhero but defending life itself who ever it is. i wouldn't call the cops until the altercation was over.

personally i think this government gives criminals to much rights. too much technicalities. it's stupid.

I am not saying do nothing. I am saying that assuming that a 'martial arts' response is the only tactically sound one for every reality situation is living outside reality/practical sense. Hang on....

WARNING: I am going to repeat myself for those who have been here a while

THere are three major areas that I consider essential for civilian self defense training:

1. Internal (stress management, emotional/mental control....)
2. External (tactics, awareness, physical threats - Bad guys, first aid...)
3. Societal/Legal (police procedures, use of force laws/deadly force, reporting procedures, communication with authorities....)

IMO, if you are not at least reasonably versed in all three of these areas, you are not prepared/trained/equipt for the reality of self defense. Most martial hobbyiests are sort of/to reasonably well versed in #1 and #2, but tend to get frustrated because they don't know or choose to ignore the realities of #3. This attitude will land you in jail, sued and facing culture shock when the cops don't high five you but put you in hand cuffs along with everyone else.

If you wait to call the authorities that means that you are also delaying the call out for an ambulance to treat the victim's (and possibly your) injuries which could cause a death that you thought to prevent just as easily as if you had walked away. The timely arrival of the guys with guns and body armor who are better equipt to deal with the guy with a gun that you haven't seen yet...is a great comfort to the victim who will not recognize you and might react badly if he/she/they fear that you are another bad guy they need to pepper spray, shoot, beat with a 2x4....

Most of the time, just drawing attention to the criminal act and letting them know that they have been spotted is more than enough.

Diving into every situation with 'martial arts' in mind will make for a very short career and reduce the number of lives you can save in your lifetime because you are dead.

Talk to your mother about this stuff and see how she feels about the cape image (that's a joke btw). Seriously though, I have a son and wife at home that I have responsibilities too and responding 'martially' to every response will mean making a widow and depending on the circumstance an orphan out of these people. I love humanity, but I love my family too.

 

[Tony]

I think as Martial Artists we have a responsibility to use our knowledge and skills wisely and not misuse them for personal glory. Regardless of training we should always call the Police if someone is being attacked but you have to be careful, as if you are defending a woman from her boyfriend, or abusive husband then she may may turn on you. So your good deed would go unrewarded.
I remember when I was at school two brothers followed me back to beat me up because at the time I was being bullied. While I was riding through the park they cornered me. The only help I got was from an old lady who asked me if I was alright after it had happened! So i really do believe we as Martial Artists should help those who are not able to defend themselves.

 

[Bammx2]

Ok..my 2 bits....

I believe in helping other people whole heartedly
But the "law" hates it when a civilian steps in....not LEO's...but the "law"
I am an american,but I live and teach in the UK. Now there is a different view on life!
I have a friend who there who is a BB in shotokan(old school training,hard as nails) who came to the defense of a woman being attacked by a mugger with a knife...in the scuffle my friend got several stitches as did she....and the mugger died in the process.NOT intentional...but it was a life and death situation for them both.
My friend also got 15yrs in prison!
The judge stated the reason as being "Because you are a trained martial artist...you should have known better than to kill"
To that judge....Get Bent.
I know of another man in ohio who got 5yrs for being attacked in his own kitchen by a knife weilding lunatic with the same out come!
In the UK....do NOT defend yourself, let alone a stranger or your *** is done!
In the US....take your chances,you have a better than 50/50 chance of of not being screwed in court.
Off the record......cops can't do it all by themselves,but at the same time...they don't need vigilanties either.
But all in all......"they"(not LEO's) can get stuffed.
I will sit in jail for saving someones life...I don't need permission for that.
And I belive in the "cosmic karma".......what goes around,comes around!

 

[loki09789]

The judge stated the reason as being "Because you are a trained martial artist...you should have known better than to kill"
To that judge....Get Bent.

"With Great power comes great responsibility" as they say in the Spider man movies, ...seriously though there is a perception on the part of non-martial arts trainied people (yes even legal officials) that a martial artist is instilled with a sophisticated ability to dispense force to the same professional standards as trained LEO, when most -though not all -martial artists don't even know, and from what I have seen, or care about the way that the law is set up as a tool to maintaint the peace - not as a tool to let the bad guy 'win' but to avoid escalation of force/violence. It is complicated in language, but how knowledgeable are most MA on using that language as part of their self defense package.

I don't know the details of your examples, nor do I want to pass judgement on your associates, but how you come off to LEO/Legal officials is up to you. Justified use of force, according to the legal system is a DEFENSIBLE position, so you are going to get questioned and in some cases charged because until motive/intent and extent of force is reasonably presented you are going being considered an assaulter/doer of violence. Learn the law and the language, work WITH the police and everything works out better.

When I was a volunteer firefighter, there was a car accident where this kid (maybe 16) with good intentions asked if we wanted him to go into the crushed car to turn off the engine. Someone said not too and thanks anyway. The kid insisted and started crawling into the car through a broken window w/no protective gear (turn out jacket/pants, helmet..). We had to divert a couple of guys from real life saving work to drag this kid out of the car and shag him out of there.

Part of being a good martial artist is to realize that, although you may be vastly trained in martial arts, you should be humble enough to be a 'constributing member of the team' and that it isn't about 'you' doing it all but that 'it' needs to get done. There should/is a relationship between citizen and EMT/LEO and each member has a role. Martial artists are NOT given anymore civil authority/responsibility than anyone else, unless they become a civil servant of somekind. I still say that understanding and working within the system is better than ignoring it and bulling ahead w/some self created impression of what 'ancient' values are is the better course.

If folks are really concerned about issues like third party intervention and the legal system/LEO procedures, there are usually community police courses available (one course was being journaled here on a thread by a member) to adults and students (some areas will even give extra credit for the course as well) so the community is better informed and doesn't base opinions on anectotal evidence.

This thread is about 'martial responsibility', so I will throw another 'resposibility' question on the fire. How many of you consider it "yin/yang" balancing to know first aid and medical stuff as an area of 'martial balance'? Alot of people seem to like using the yin/yang symbol as part of their philosophical explanations but Confuciunists also use it, and there is much social responsibility detailed in his philosophy about working within the system instead of focusing on the 'you' in the system.