Military Martial Art. Really a Martial Art?

[Littledragon]

The U.S. military has created its so called own martial art, marine corp./military martial art. Can it really be considered a martial art? We know the MARTIAL aspect of their martial art is ther but what about the ART aspect that is a piece of martial art that makes Martial Art a whole?

Also in general what do you think of Military Martial Arts?


Tarek

 

[Guro Harold]

The U.S. military has created its so called own martial art, marine corp./military martial art. Can it really be considered a martial art? We know the MARTIAL aspect of their martial art is ther but what about the ART aspect that is a piece of martial art that makes Martial Art a whole?

Also in general what do you think of Military Martial Arts?


Tarek

Keep in mind in the past, martial arts came from the need for military training as well as self-defense, so it is more than possible.

 

[Hanzo04]

to be considered a martial art it has to have a philosophy not just combat. so no i would not consider marines real martial artists. there just machines in this case.

 

[loki09789]

to be considered a martial art it has to have a philosophy not just combat. so no i would not consider marines real martial artists. there just machines in this case.

I would hesitate to compare a 'professional martial artist' (as in one who uses martial skill for a living) to 'hobby artists or martial enthusiasts' who train at their leisure and convenience. The necessity of simple, direct training instead of money laundering, interest maintianing complexity should not be confused for a lack of artestry. It all depends on what you are training for as a goal.

As far as USMC martial arts, it is part of a complete combatives artist training package that fits for the missions they will face. I say complete because the philosophical aspects of the Marine Martial arts program come from the Corps values program along with a respect for the fighting heritage that these current Marines are a part of in the current day. I think mottos like "Semper Fidelis" and "Espirit de Corps" are indicators of a pretty noble philosophical stance for a fighting unit tradition. Unlike civilian martial arts, Marine Martial arts and any of the US military traditions is about selfless service, duty and honor demonstrated in service to something larger than the self. Civilian martial arts is about 'personal development.'

I am not bashing civilian/recreational martial arts per say, but it would be a shame to forget that the current 'traditional arts' - including the philosophies come from a militaristic tradition as well. Musashi was a fighter/philosopher. Sun Tzu was a general, Even the Shaolin Monks were warrior/tacticians as well as religious men. TKD is a homogenization of various Korean arts established first for the Korean military by a general... who's name I can't remember off the top of my head.

The tools of the trade might change but the philosophy of selfless service, honor, courage and other character traits are essential components to all aspects of Marine training - including the Marine Corps Martial Arts program.

 

[clfsean]

The U.S. military has created its so called own martial art, marine corp./military martial art. Can it really be considered a martial art? We know the MARTIAL aspect of their martial art is ther but what about the ART aspect that is a piece of martial art that makes Martial Art a whole?

Yeah... I've seen the curriculum. It's pretty comprehensive for what it's meant for. As a parallel....

Also in general what do you think of Military Martial Arts?

Xingyi was created specifically (in one legend) by Yueh Fei for his infantry troops because it was quick & easy to learn & is effective. Xingyi was taught again due to the speed of teaching, drilling & learning in China during WWII (I think) & during the civil war after WWII. It still is in some places in China. The guy who taught me Xingyi 5 Roads teaches it to the police of Hangzhou.

 

[Guro Harold]

Yeah... I've seen the curriculum. It's pretty comprehensive for what it's meant for. As a parallel....


Xingyi was created specifically (in one legend) by Yueh Fei for his infantry troops because it was quick & easy to learn & is effective. Xingyi was taught again due to the speed of teaching, drilling & learning in China during WWII (I think) & during the civil war after WWII. It still is in some places in China. The guy who taught me Xingyi 5 Roads teaches it to the police of Hangzhou.

As far as USMC martial arts, it is part of a complete combatives artist training package that fits for the missions they will face. I say complete because the philosophical aspects of the Marine Martial arts program come from the Corps values program along with a respect for the fighting heritage that these current Marines are a part of in the current day. I think mottos like "Semper Fidelis" and "Espirit de Corps" are indicators of a pretty noble philosophical stance for a fighting unit tradition. Unlike civilian martial arts, Marine Martial arts and any of the US military traditions is about selfless service, duty and honor demonstrated in service to something larger than the self. Civilian martial arts is about 'personal development.'

Great examples!!!

 

[8253]

it teaches self defense and dicipline, so it is possible that it is a martial art.

 

[Aegis]

to be considered a martial art it has to have a philosophy not just combat. so no i would not consider marines real martial artists. there just machines in this case.

No it doesn't. That's a common misconception.

"Art" in this case just means "Skills acquired through dedication and practice". Nothing else. A "martial art" is a set of skills that are aquired for use in a martial setting. Since there is nothing more martial than an actual battle, their training may be more of a martial art than what most of the rest of us train in.

 

[Littledragon]

Thank you for all your great replys!

Tarek

 

[Eldritch Knight]

Many martial arts are spelled with the Chinese character "tao" (道 - read "dou" in Japanese). This isn't a coincidence. They emphasize the fact that martial arts is more than simply a means to kill someone, but is a means to master yourself and kill the evils of society (mentioned in Katsujinken, Satsujinto). The person who learns them simply to kill others isn't a martial artist, they're merely a killer. Martial artists are different by merit of their focus. They practice not so that they will be able to kill others should the need arise, but so that the need will never arise. Someone mentioned Musashi and Sun Tzu in their post. One thing that was left out is that both Musashi and Sun Tzu, invincible men in their time, argued *against* the use of force, always citing that physical combat be the final alternative. When you encounter a fighting system that doesn't account for this possibility; that doesn't incorporate the value of things greater than mere survival, then what you have is just another weapon, and not something that deserves the characteristic of "martial art".

 

[muaythaifreak]

Many martial arts are spelled with the Chinese character "tao" (道 - read "dou" in Japanese). This isn't a coincidence. They emphasize the fact that martial arts is more than simply a means to kill someone, but is a means to master yourself and kill the evils of society (mentioned in Katsujinken, Satsujinto). The person who learns them simply to kill others isn't a martial artist, they're merely a killer. Martial artists are different by merit of their focus. They practice not so that they will be able to kill others should the need arise, but so that the need will never arise. Someone mentioned Musashi and Sun Tzu in their post. One thing that was left out is that both Musashi and Sun Tzu, invincible men in their time, argued *against* the use of force, always citing that physical combat be the final alternative. When you encounter a fighting system that doesn't account for this possibility; that doesn't incorporate the value of things greater than mere survival, then what you have is just another weapon, and not something that deserves the characteristic of "martial art".

When a Marine is sent in to battle it is a forgone conclusion that the "final alternative" you speak of has come to fruition. Even Musashi and Sun Tzu would agree that there does come a time when the use of physical force becomes necessary. The fact that it is being used to kill does not negate the fact that it is a martial art.

 

[Littledragon]

I agree with all the ones who are saying that martial art consists of physical force and all that kind of stuff...

But..


In order to have Yin and Yang you need both Yin and Yang

In order to have Martial Art you need both Martial and Art

In my opinion I think Military Martial Arts is missing the ART aspect and focusing mainly on the MARTIAL aspect.

Like I said in order to have a whole you need two of the halfes.

Tarek :asian:

 

[Aegis]

Someone mentioned Musashi and Sun Tzu in their post. One thing that was left out is that both Musashi and Sun Tzu, invincible men in their time, argued *against* the use of force, always citing that physical combat be the final alternative.

Musashi supposedly fought hundreds of duels to the death, seeking out people to fight. That doesn't ring true with arguing against the use of force.

The person who learns them simply to kill others isn't a martial artist, they're merely a killer. Martial artists are different by merit of their focus. They practice not so that they will be able to kill others should the need arise, but so that the need will never arise.

The point is that the original martial arts would have been about killing. Simple as that. You would learn to use a sword to kill an opponent before he could kill you, for example. You wouldn't be training to avoid conflict, but to win in that conflict. To say that all martial arts are about avoiding conflict is to ignore the history of martial arts.

 

[Littledragon]

Musashi supposedly fought hundreds of duels to the death, seeking out people to fight. That doesn't ring true with arguing against the use of force.



The point is that the original martial arts would have been about killing. Simple as that. You would learn to use a sword to kill an opponent before he could kill you, for example. You wouldn't be training to avoid conflict, but to win in that conflict. To say that all martial arts are about avoiding conflict is to ignore the history of martial arts.

All martial arts are about avoiding conflict is to ignore the history of martial arts--- I think the person is trying to say its not all about jsut fighting which its not. Before you refer to histroy of the ancient battles and the MARTIAL aspect you have to remember about the ART aspect as well, martial arts is not only about war. If a martial artist thinks martial arts is just about fighting and war they are not trully grasping the aspect of martial arts.

 

[white mantis]

I've seen some of the techniques used in this art and even learned a few of them. It's basicly kick-boxing and wrestling mashed together.

 

[Littledragon]

I've seen some of the techniques used in this art and even learned a few of them. It's basicly kick-boxing and wrestling mashed together.

With the just mashed blends of other martial arts do you think there really is any philosophy?

 

[white mantis]

With the just mashed blends of other martial arts do you think there really is any philosophy?

No, Not really it was just ment for fighting that I know of. by the way I saw some of your pictures very cool I love the pyramid one. My father is from the middle-east and I am half middle-eastern.:asian:

 

[Littledragon]

No, Not really it was just ment for fighting that I know of. by the way I saw some of your pictures very cool I love the pyramid one. My father is from the middle-east and I am half middle-eastern.:asian:

Cool, thank you.

Tarek

 

[white mantis]

Cool, thank you.

Tarek

You are welcome:asian:

Antoine

 

[Flatlander]

From Dictionary.com

art[size=-1]1[/size] ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (ärt)
n.

1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
   1. <LI type=a>The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. <LI type=a>The study of these activities.
   2. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
2. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
3. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
4. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
5. 
   
   1. <LI type=a>A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
   2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
6. 
   
   1. <LI type=a>Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
   2. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).
7. 
   
   1. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
   2. Artful contrivance; cunning.

I think that by this definition, it's difficult for me to imagine that the military martial system is missing the 'art' part. Specifically look at them in the context of points 6 and 7. The art of martial movement. This is an umbrella under which all forms, styles, and types can fit.