The Limits of Loyalty to Your SiFu

geezer

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In the CMAs loyalty to your style and, especially to your sifu are a big deal. It's the stuff of legends and movies. Traditional martial artists define themselves by lineage and are often willing to fight, if necessary, to defend the honor of their style and master. What are the reasonable limits on this loyalty? I admit that I have a personal interest in this issue. Decades ago I began studying under a talented, but controversial Chinese Sifu. After several years, I formally became his disciple, and went on to become a Sifu in the system he taught. Eventually the relationship deteriorated. My master made demands of my finances and labor that I could not meet. Finally, after following him for about 13 years, I quietly disappeared and quit the martial arts. Now, some 15 years later, I have found that many other senior instructors also left this master for similar reasons, including the last three heads of his American organization. I have begun to quietly train with some of these people in a garage, and am slowly rebuilding my skills. Someday, I may choose to teach publicly again, but if I do, I will be branded a "rebel". I have made my decision. If that time comes, I will defy my Sifu--the Grandmaster--and do what I feel is right. So question is, what are the limits of loyalty to your sifu in the real world? What would you do?
 

East Winds

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geezer,

This is a very interesting post! Early in my CMA training I studied with a "Master" who demanded loyalty from his students by not allowing them to study any other CMA or work with any other teacher. It took several years to realise that you cannot "demand" loyalty and that it can only be earned. In the west we have a habit of only "taking" from our teachers and give them nothing back. We think nothing of training other systems with other teachers and yet we still expect our original sifu to give us everything we demand!! It is only when you have found a "true" teacher and you realise that you do not "need" another teacher, that we can truly devote our whole attention to what we are being taught. Only then can you begin to have a real understanding of the art you are practicing and only then will your teacher begin to give you the real teachings. Then you will realise what loyalty to a teacher really means. Your teacher knows when you have reached this state!!!

Geezer, I sympathise with your experience and the difficulty you find yourself in. I don't know how to resolve it amicably. I for one would be interested in your future progress. Please keep us informed.

Very best wishes
 

ChukaSifu2

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You may want to consider paying respect to your system or Sifu by plain naming your style,ie.. Chow Gar Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu to Southern Praying Kung Fu, this may not affend your Sifu, same as it does not give him credit. It may not allow you to glamourize yourself or ride on your Sifu's coat tails to help sell the style, but if your really in it for the continuation of the style or lineage of the style to continue, it does seem less offensive to a Sifu.
Heck, you can call it whatever you like as long as you keep a reference to the style so as perspective students will know what your teaching.
Hope this helps. I too am in a similar situation. I teach other combat training and so not too affend my Sifu or dishonor our system.
I changed the name of these teachings and only teach these outside the system, combat skills, after normal class hours,privately, or in seminars.ie..
Main system- "Chuka Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu"
Branch system- "South Mantis Combat Science"
& "Mantis Tactical Combatives"

Sincerely,
Sifu Tony Blum - Chuka Tong Long Kung Fu
 

JadecloudAlchemist

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loyality to my teacher depends on if the bountry crosses what I find to be ethical or moral. Geezer I understand where you are coming from I have been in similar organizations in which I was lied too but yet my loyality kept me naive until I broke from it. From that and other experiences I have tried to use caution when choosing a teacher. We do what we must and what we feel is right within.
 

Steel Tiger

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I think that once you enter into a formal relationship with a teacher like being a disciple things are a little different to an ordinary student/teacher relationship. The student, disciple, has commited himself to obey and support the teacher, and the teacher has commited himself to teaching and nurturing the student. It's pretty straightforward in theory but never runs so well.

If one party of the relationship does not live up to their requirements does that not void the formality of the relationship? Yes, a teacher will remain a teacher, but the master/disciple relationship may have ended. A master making unreasonable demands on time and finances has, in my opinion, breached the contract that is a master/disciple relationship, just as a disciple not studying or being disobedient would have.

My own experience is quite different. When I, and some other students, reached a high level of attainment our teacher gave us specific names, in my case Bai Hu (White Tiger), just as his teacher had done for him. My teacher was called Yu She (Jade Snake) so his school was called Yu She Dao (Way ofthe Jade Snake). My school is Bai Hu Dao (Way of the White Tiger). I teach what my teacher taught me, but with my own inferences and additions. In fact, I actually teach in a more traditional format than my teach does.

I think you have to honour the teacher for teaching, but don't let a failed relationship with that person drive out of something you are passionate about.
 

ggg214

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in the past, to be a disciple means to be a member of sifu's family. besides training in CMA, a disciple also should do houseworks and even make money support his sifu/ sifu's family. the understanding of sifu is more like the second father.
i think the loyalty to your sifu can be understood as the loyalty to your own family, in this way.
however, traddition is changed. most of we learn from our sifu is MA, we don't need to live together with sifu, and do houseworks for him. if you are so lucky to find a great teacher and be accept as his disciple, maybe you also learn some ways to be a good person.but that's all. in my opinion, limiting the loyalty in CMA is my choice.
although i have been told not to learn other schools, my master's reason is that at the begining of training, it's the time to build body's structure. training the basic things under different schools, it may cause the conflict and slow down or stop your progress.after having built up your body's structure, it's allowed to get in touch with other schools. even for my sifu, he has several sifus, but seldomly learnt at the same time.
 

Jade Tigress

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No matter who you are, respect has to be earned. Maybe it starts off as a given based on previous accomplishments, but it has to be maintained. How do you remain "loyal" to someone you've lost respect for? That doesn't mean you are going to bad mouth him or anything, but you can go your own way and do what is right.

You don't only have responsibility to your sifu, but to the ancestors of the system. What would they think of his behavior? Is it not your responsibility to carry on the system in the vane of the founders? To teach with integrity? Think of it as maintaining loyalty that way.
 

Xue Sheng

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If you respect your sifu it is because YOU have decided that he/she deserves your respect. If you do not respect your Sifu it is because YOU have decided that he/she does not deserver your respect and therefore YOU need to go looking for another sifu.

From the POV of the Sifu if you are training with them you should respect them, if you do not respect them then go train with someone else. Because if you do not it is likely they will kick you out anyway or just not train you much. That is IF they are a legitimate (old school) CMA Sifu from China.

In China for a traditional Chinese martial arts teacher (old school), from what I am told since I currently do not have a sifu in China, look at it this way it is the same as being married. You don’t cheat on your wife or you will end up in divorce court. You do not disrespect your sifu or go train with another or you will be kicked out.
 

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